The difference is:

In comicbooks, the writer is trying to save the hero's butt.
In RPGs, the GM is trying to kill him.

Doctor Foom wrote on Sep 20^th, 2009 at 12:53pm:

This sums it up nicely!

Yeah it does sum it up... but when I was wide eyed and full of glee hoping to capture that "COMIC" aspect... and the Randomess of everything entered the frame... it was a slight disappointment. but as stated.
"It got better!"... actually... it "Got great!"

I just learned to... ummm Roll with it! LOL

G7

SuperFriend wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2009 at 8:20pm:

Funny you should say that. I've played in a 7 RL years campaign (not V&V, It was AD&D 2nd ed), but with such a long running campaign, we had those stellar side plots (or "runs") as well as the run of the mill dungeon crawls (where you're really getting the XP or gear up for the next level of the game).

While shorter campaigns may not be able to ramp up to those highs . Most of the time it's a combo where the GM gets a good feel for the characters/players at the same time as the players get a good feel for the characters. Once you work that out, hitting the highs are much easier.

At least, that's my 2 cents

In comic books, readers often are privy to the thoughts of both heroes and villains. In RPGs, the GM may know the villains' thoughts, and the heroes may know what's going on inside their players' heads, but those thoughts aren't part of the adventure until actions or conversations take place. The unspoken drama and internal relationship-building of comics doesn't transfer easily into RPGs.

In comics, readers don't necessarily see every punch a hero/villain throws (especially in group vs. group battles or secnes when a hero takes on large numbers of minions/underlings). In RPGs, every action is seen/experienced by the players.

The in-fighting among characters that might strengthen a comic book story can destory a campaign.

In RPGs, the heroes (players) should have fun because of the challenges they face. In comics, heroes don't necessarily have a good time.

In comics, the writers/readers don't necessarily know the precise limits of a hero's abilities--especially at first. In RPGs, each character's stats are recorded in detail from the get-go.

Guardian7 wrote on Sep 24^th, 2009 at 2:13pm:


I wuz unclear. When I said heroes, I meant the players--not the characters. Yer absolutely right, players can have a great time when the chips are down for their characters.

Well I think in my case of being able to do illos of chara (and all the NPCs) helped to keep that visual aspect there,  but I learned how to become so many different things from a simple pedestian, to the weather itself. I learned to verbally convey emotional states without saying anything.

But so much of the work I did was dependent upon the Players. If they were not responding to what was going on as I described it... then the point would have been mote (at least for me).

Your Prof. X statement reminds me of how important TEACHER (The Crusaders' near sentient computer) was to the team. There were many times that it seemed that TEACHER helped them achieve their goals even though he didn't take an active part, other than information.
But he spotlighted more than one might imagine he would, It was just more subtle.
Prof. X on the other hand was in the "Parental/Teacher" position... He had to guide the X-Men, after all... it was always his vision... not theirs.

To be honest... I could sit here and tell you who I would deem an NPC in comics and who would factor as a PC.

EXAMPLE: Treat AVENGERS 160-181 or so as a game setting. Based on the characters I would place the PC and NPCs like this.

PCs
Captain America
Iron Man
Scarlet Witch
Hawkeye
Wasp

NPCs
Vision
Thor
Wonder Man
Beast (possible PC)
Yellowjacket
Quicksilver
Jocasta
Moondragon
Ms Marvel (possible PC)
Capt. Marvell
Hercules
Black Widow

...and that is about the average amount of NPCs in my game... LOL... KIDDING!
That is how I see them... there are important ones and non-important ones. The ones on the NPC list just struck me as stagnant in growth or serious activity in the Avengers at that time, Beast and Jocasta were cold shouldered a lot, Wonder Man's self doubt was drowning (definite NPC there), Vision is so much an NPC it is nearly scarey, Thor never does or acts the way he does in his own comic and the rest there were to help bounce story stuff off the ones I thought were the PC types for the comic at that time.

X-Men 113 - 130 (sorry don't remember the years).

PCs
Cyclops
Wolverine
Storm
Marvel Girl/Pheonix (Green & Gold Costume)

NPCs
Nightcrawler (possible PC... but doubtful)
Banshee
Colosuss (possible PC... but doubtful)
Dark Pheonix (Red & Gold Costume)
Prof. X
Sunfire
Dazzler
Beast
Havok
Polaris
Thunderbird (RIP)... lol... sorry... I loved that character!

I find it odd that I only found four of the characters to be PCs... There were bit parts that the others certainly did... but not to the level or strength of the four (one of which becomes evil and is automatically transfered to the GM becoming an NPC).

Of all the characters listed... I think those four in the X-MEN setting were the PCs.

Actually... this is kind of a fun game... I never thought about taking a period of comics and figuring out who seems more the PC type (The one the writer was taking more interest in) or the NPC type (The one the writer degenerated to background filler).

I agree and disagree about who is in the spotlight and who is a sideliner... I think they find some characters interesting and some not. I NEVER would have put Wolverine in the spotlight... matter of fact... In X-Men issue #96... I would have killed Wolverine over Thunderbird and Thunderbird would have become a central character (Or PC).

The differences between comics is that fluidity you mentioned. Because they can turn around and highlight someone else... the equivalent being... they simply changed and NPC into a PC (Like Thor is in his own comic... but isn't in the Avengers) and then back again at their whim.

fun

G7

I guess if these comics were viewed in game terms (for whatever periods we are discussing).

Well... You have to admit... though she (Wasp) may not have been a great PC at that time. With all of Hank's problems and frequent character problems... he was ALWAYS a NPC. Jan on the other hand developed into a GREAT PC as time progressed.

Scarlet Witch was so much the PC... and I think she probably always was... until her breakdowns in WCAvengers started. Unlike her brother Pietro (Quicksilver) who always had a villainous snide side to him.
Vision: since he is basically Scarlet Witch's plot device and frankly easily used and manipulated (Even deactivated), I could see him as little more than a NPC throughout his entire run.

Again... Wonder Man was so filled with personal issues... that if he was played as a PC... he certainly had the weakness of Low-self confidence (Which would probably make him screw up in some manner or not react when he should and could - compound this with the fact he had been a villain at first).

Beast and Jocasta kinda irritate me. I love both the characters (But I always root for the underdogs and they tend to be my favorite chara*)... Beast may have been played as a PC at times... but he was mostly degenerated to NPC throughout most of his career... Ms. J on the other hand was never anything more than a NPC... even when she was in Machine Man.

Thor's TRUE personality and capacity was played down so badly, that how else could he be viewed other than a NPC... abiet a very VOCAL NPC... but an NPC nevertheless (Except for in his own comic - which is odd... cause even though I know that Thor was a powerhouse... it was no less than Superman was in the JLA and he was a PC in that I felt).

Black Panther... NPC: unfortunately... he is a great character with an amazing background... but there were times even in his own solo appearences that he seemed to be less a PC and more a GM playing a NPC... sorry... I just don't think they have truely developed him.

Again... Moondragon was so much a NPC.

Black Widow had sorta always been (even in the Champions).

Herc was a bit more progressive... sort of... I mean at least he was a dumb brick who swung at things. He gets Kudos for being a legend and having a wider known history (even if it was the Marvel version of it). He could be either a PC or a NPC (but as with the Wasp... just not a great one).

Heck... I thought Hellcat was more a PC than some of the ones I mentioned (Though I have a weak fondness for the Defenders characters... she certainly brought a lot with her to the Avengers... til she was degenerated to Moondragon's student).

I think Starhawk (Stakar/Aleta: Guardians of the Galaxy) played a bigger role and acted more like a PC (sort of a temporary/stand in one), than some of the ones I mentioned.

Falcon once he was added might have been considered a PC as well... but he could also be considered a NPC plot device for both Cap and Hawkeye.

NPC of the most importance? Jarvis... the man did everything!

Refreshing the PCs again...
I still believe that they are:

Iron Man (who was his greatest during the Layton period)
Captain America (who I have always felt was too vocal not to be a PC)
Scarlet Witch (same as Cap, plus all her NPC-plot chara)
Wasp (who as SF noted... wasn't a great one til much later)
Hawkeye (Come on... this guy was too full of personality not to be a PC)
and with her addition... Ms. Marvel, Who I think by deed and action (even though she had her own mag at the time, like both Iron Man and Cap) was more central than the ones I listed as NPCs above... Heck... she even got a great exit for a PC leaving the game (kill Rogue!).

* In the Beast/Jocasta blurb... I mentioned how I had a certain fondness for underdog chara.

My favorite chara always seemed to be the underdogs...
Such as Thunderbird, Ms. Marvel (probably one of my all time favorites! Kill ROGUE!), Captain Mar'vell (stupid death - yeah I know he is back... aren't they all?), Jocasta (stupid death), Beast, Black Panther, Falcon, Nighthawk (stupid death), Hellcat (stupid death), Texas Twister, Blue Shield, Cap Ultra and a plethora of others.
All of these chara had tremendous potential. Thundra is a great example of that. She shined in Marvel-Two-N-One.
I always felt Iceman got the short end of the stick, as did Angel (I really wish the Champions had gone somewhere... there was SO much potential there!).
Wolverine drowned out the rest of the X-Men and his only saving grace in my opinion is his relationship with Carol Danvers (the Divine Ms. M). Otherwise... I wish he had been the one to splatter on Neferia's exploding plane (X-Men # 96) and not Thunderbird.

BACK TO THE SUBJECT...
I think the differences between comics and RPGs are both slight... and vast.

Some aspects can be emulated...
Great storylines
Epic fights
Character developement (Providing your PCs know how to)

Others can't...
Visual medium (Though I could do a lot artistically... I couldn't very well draw the story as I was playing it... LOL)
The inner voices/monologues
Shadowed upcoming events... well they can if you have a chara with Cosmic Awareness and play with it.
The aspect that you can't do is predict what the PCs are going to do... your best laid plans can be undone by a smart player and you had to wing it and be able to make and adjust your story on the fly! (those dastardly players!! curse them!)

In examining all of this... and all that has been written thus far. I can see where they both have their pluses...

Comics can be very exciting or gripping!
So can RPGs... just takes the right GM and storytelling abilities.

G7

Yeah... Marrina was definitely a NPC.

I think the PCs in Alpha Flight at that time were:

Guardian (he was SO 4 color!!... or two lol).

Snowbird (I loved this chara... gorgeous look).

Sasquatch (definite PC... he factored pretty high).

NPCs
Puck I am not so sure about... he had PC potential... but he always seemed a bit player... NPC: just my opinion.

The twins Northstar and Aurora were both NPCs.

I saw Shaman as the Vision to Snowbird's Scarlet Witch. So he was a NPC... as was his daughter Talisman.

Marrina... already discussed.

Box... I am unsure about... I think he had PC potential like Puck... (Definite weakness)... I think he would have been interesting to play... especially with the transfer (Deadmaning!) of self into Robot shell. Cool take on the robot thing being living with it still remaining a robot (probably one of the best and most original ideas for a super hero).

I think that pretty much covers Alpha Flight.

Now the one team I saw everyone as PCs was... the Fantastic Four.
I didn't see any of them take a backseat, Even (early days) Sue while captured tended to play a decent role... granted... she might have come off as not so well played - maybe she had the weakness "Easily captured!" (Course... that changed!).

Next time I will cover the Defenders.

Notice I changed the title? LOL

G7

Yeah SF… I agree with your Defenders assessment on Namor, Hulk and Surfer. (Though of the three Namor might have been the only playable chara… then again with his frequent displays of temper. Doubtful!)

Dr. Strange in the early days was the PC… I think it was pretty much the GM and 1 player then. LOL

Clea (NPC tool for Dr. S… and not a good one)

I think Val was definitely a PC.
As was Hawkeye and Black Knight in those early days (Pcs - of the Avengers that appeared I think all but Iron Man would have been NPCs, though he may have been one too!).

Nighthawk… definite PC (LOVE HIM!).

Power Man, Daredevil and Hellstorm were all NPCs (So were the Guardians of the Galaxy).

I think a case could be made for Red Guardian as a PC (Though the player had to quit the game and got deported or something like that. Her later appearances definitely place her in the NPC framework - along with uber-cool looking Russian foe  the PRESENCE!! (possibly one of the single best looking foes of that period).

ENTER: Hellcat! Yeah… this girl had PC written all over her.
Moondragon… ever the degenerate NPC she always was!

Moon Knight during the Zodiac Key period (AWESOME STORYLINE! - gorgeous Giffin precursor Legion of Super Heroes artwork!)… was played as a PC for the time he was there.

Might be noted that Yellowjacket’s appearance in the Defenders might as well have been played as a PC.

Here is a shot of the DEFENDERS HQ and the membership lineup of the time.



Once you get past Issue #50 of the Defenders (The best story in the Defenders run)... you move into some interesting areas (including the gorgeously rendered Defenders #53! by Dave Cockrum, Keith Giffen, Mike Golden and Terry Austin and issue #54 by Giffen and Golden, with some Perez and Gil Kane covers... definitely awesome! and where I originally came in at).

Ms Marvel appears in the late 50's issue... I'd put her as a PC. Just for her amount of activity.

Devilslayer appears... I think he is an either/or chara... PC or NPC depending on the GM... likely NPC.

But it is when you get to Defenders #62-64 that things get VERY interesting. Cause along with with standard Defender's cast of Hellcat, Hulk, Valkyrie and Nighthawk... who unbeknownst them a membership drive has been made... attracting these heroes:

Hercules
Havok
Captain Ultra
Black Goliath
White Tiger
Iron Fist
Falcon
Torpedo
Stingray
Prowler
Jack of Hearts
Nova
Son of Satan
Tagak
Polaris
Marvel Man
Captain Mar'Vell
Ms Marvel
and finally... Paladin! (WHEW!)

I wouldn't even begin to know where and who to pick for PC and NPCs for this... The last three on the list split before actually trying to do some... umm heroing.

As far as later on goes... there is the appearence of Omega-Man and Avengers; Yellowjacket, Wasp and Black Panther, Ghost Rider as well as more Devilslayer, The Squadron Supreme (Before they sucked) and the Gargoyle, as well as the coming of Iceman, Angel, Beast, Son of Satan (again), Overmind, Andromeda, Moondragon (yuck!), Cloud and Manslaughterer or whatever.

Of all listed above... PCs would probably be...

Devilslayer
Gargoyle
Beast
and Andromeda.

The rest were NPCs (at least in my mind).

G7

Actually the Hellions were stronger characters period!
I would have rather seen HELLIONS: Massachusetts Academy over New Mutants. They were more interesting.

The only two interesting chara in New Mutants were Mirage (only marginally so) and most especially Karma. I also think it would have been great if Sam had been black as opposed to some southern white boy.

Sunspot and Wolvesbane could have easily had been NPC... both Doug and Warlock were.

I saw the PCs as Karma, Mirage, Cannonball and Magma.
I saw Magik as an odd mixture of a PC who kept having to leave in the middle of a game and would end up GM controlled (Until he finally removed her... LOL).

Skids, Rictor, BoomBoom and Rusty were WASTES of SPACE!!. (all of which were NPCs)
As was ALL of the Morlocks (I had really wished... and actually thought that the Marauders were going to waste them all in some sappy eyed story... ugh... course they keep them).

I think Firestar started out in a NPC slot and a player comes along that wants to play that NPC... I think that is how she would translate. Especially once she joined the New Warriors... FANTASTIC TEAM... they never should have let Bagley off it as artist... it sucked as soon as he was gone.

NEW WARRIORS...
Only characters I saw as NPCs was Night Thrasher and Rage, the rest (Namorita, Nova, Speedball, Firestar and Justice) were PCs.

Well... gotta bail.
Cya

G7

Guardian7 wrote on Sep 26^th, 2009 at 3:06am:

Me too! They had so much more depth than any of the New Mutants.

Here's how they'd work in an PRG: The players come up with characters and background: Catseye was living on the street, Tarot's powers emerged while she was using her cards, Jetstream selects a low-self-control power AND bionics (which overcomes his weakness), Roulette was the only one with real criminal ties, and Thunderbird wants training andywhere OTHER than Xavier's school.

So the GM gets them all started as a new team at the Mass. academy. During their first mission it becomes pretty clear to the kids that Ms. Frost isn't simply an alternative to Prof. X--she's actually evil. As a player character, what do you do????

BTW: I liked your note about Magik going back and forth.

Ultimately, the issue we've been dancing around is whether or not the characters seem three-dimensonal and make decisions for themselves.

NPCs, as we're defining them here, tend to be on-two dimensional, going through the motions, and simply supporting the PCs in either predictable or plot-fodder ways. NPCs are interdouced when the PCs need more help or there's a storyline that the GM wants to tell.

As a GM I would never say (accurately) that I'm trying to "kill" the PCs, but I am trying to challenge them significantly.

And if a PC happens to do something stupid or foolish (or is just really unlucky) then they might die, which as you guys have said is not likely to happen in comics (an unplanned death, that is).

Guardian7 wrote on Sep 25^th, 2009 at 12:10am:


I don't really agree with your assessments here.  In my mind, Nightcrawler and Colossus had plenty of times where they were "PCs", though I admit they were not often focused on as much as the others you mentioned.

Phoenix is another one that could be seen as a PC during those times (and we've had major changes like what she went though in our games).

Another factor, for me, though, is the additions that Claremont and John Bolton put into that same run in their "Classic X-Men" (which I've been re-reading a bit and are now nearly 20 years old).  So in the same story (from those same issues you mentioned) where Nightcrawler might have been relegated to somewhat of a background character, there was a 13 page feature (for the back-half of the comic) dealing ONLY with Nightcrawler and Wolverine, say, or Colossus and Storm, etc.

I guess I just see it a bit differently.  In our games we have had players that don't care much for the "role-playing" aspects, and - if our games were to be transcribed into comic book form - they might appear as if they were NPCs, since they might be quieter, less involved in some of the social aspects that the PCs get involved with, or less involved as a detective-type.

John wrote on Sep 26^th, 2009 at 2:37pm:


Good point.  I completely agree.  You need that bit of tension to create excitement and thrilling situations.

SuperFriend wrote on Sep 26^th, 2009 at 3:05pm:

  I had a D&D Dm that would have a blue hand come out of the sky and push us along to where he wanted us to go.  Its no a joke with us, " here comes the Blue Hand..."

SuperFriend wrote on Sep 26^th, 2009 at 3:05pm:


I have seen that, or a variant of it, but it's not something we deal with for any of our GMs (thankfully).

The variant I saw was a GM continually telling PCs what they thought, felt, and even did: "That really pisses you off, so you go over and turn the TV off, slamming your fist down on it as you do so!".

I don't care for this (at all), and am glad none of our GMs do this.  They might try to persuade you that your character might see things differently ("remember that your character hates this guy, as he killed your girlfriend a year ago!"), but the choice should always be up to the individual player (unless they're Mind Controlled, Emotion Controlled, or something similar, and the player refuses to behave as they should).