With all of the new material for V&V being announced, I figured there should be a topic where creators could come hype their upcoming projects.

This is a preview character from the upcoming release "Enter The Gene Pool"
Art Copyright 2010 James Bishop
Character concept IP Copyright 2010 James Satter
Serenade-

and I'm very limited on space for uploads.... so I keep having to erase previous postings....

Here's a few more sneak peaks, courtesy of Alabasterknight.

Majestic wrote on Jul 8^th, 2010 at 1:33pm:


Hmmm....I might start an errata thread, so they know where to look.

Before the emergence of Monkey House Games, Jeff Dee said he was working on the equivalent of Most Wanted 2 for Living Legends. That's what I'd like to see--all the villains who were going to be in that volume. After that, the V&V version of Education in Terror and the mystical Living Legends module already in print.

On the FGU side of things, I can't wait to see the materials that AK has already hinted at!!!

Thanks for the info, AK. I wonder if the grievances Jeff Dee made here a few months back (quoted below), were why he didn't turn in the ms. It'd be great if he responds to your note (above) to clear things up about any money that exchanged hands. I'd also love to see any unpublished art Jeff Dee did from the classic 1980s.

Jeff Dee wrote on Apr 25^th, 2010 at 10:42am:
[/right]

It doesn't need to go private; there's nothing to debate.

dsumner wrote on Jul 12^th, 2010 at 11:39pm:

John's the moderator of this section. I'm sure he'll pipe in about what is and isn't okay for the forum. You don't need to keep running interferance.

Troy... wrote on Jul 13^th, 2010 at 12:54am:


I know this is going to stir up things a bit but I don't think it is appropriate for someone who just joined the forum to be telling someone that has been here for a very long time what they can or can not do. I find it interesting that both you and Alabaster Knight keep lambasting Jeff for his actions on the forum when you both seem to be fans of a game he co-created. The only reason I can see for your FGU fanboy fanaticism is that you are both contributors to FGU and might feel threatened by Monkey House Games in some way? If that's not the case I apologize. But Dom has agreed to step off the soapbox, I have decided to not say anything negative against FGU in the future, perhaps the two of you could do the same in regards to MHG.

Wow, Knight I understand that you make you money from FGU but I hope this will be the last we get from both sides about the legalities.

Most of us are here for the game

Guys, I'm not trying to stir things up. Like everyone else here, AK is a long time V&V fan, supporter, and now, creator. He loves the game, and wants to see it prosper. Contrary to what some of you may believe, he has no interest in seeing MHG hurt, nor does he want to see Jeff and Jack hurt, as he's admired their work, and would love to see them produce more material (He's keeping his fingers crossed for CHESS Source book, and so am I).

But as a creator, he has to make sure his interests are protected, and a long legal battle would impede him from creating new products, and possible hurt him financially. He's worried that if FGU and MHG get into a legal battle, he, and any other past, current, or future writer or artist will be caught in the middle, and that everyone involved, from the owners of both companies, to the creative staff, to the fans wile be hurt, and V&V will go down in flames.

So it's understandable that he's concerned. While he may express an opinion that differs from yours, it's still a valid point of view. So, how about cutting him a little slack? With that said, I'm dropping the subject, and getting back to discussing gaming. 

AK, any update on the projected release date for Enter the Gene Pool? Also, Jack Herman announced he's working on a new V&V project.

AlabasterKnight wrote on Jul 17^th, 2010 at 11:31am:


Keeping fingers crossed, as I'm fiending for new stuff. It's just like a drug addict who'd been clean for decades, now that I've had a "hit", I'm craving more.

I too can't wait!  I'm really looking forward to seeing what you guys have come up with!

I haven't even had a chance to run most of the new stuff yet (as one of our GMs has multiple characters "stuck" in an apolcalyptic future), but I sure am looking forward to doing so!   

dsumner wrote on Jul 17^th, 2010 at 5:53am:


I have to admit, I am interested in Enter the Gene Pool. Perhaps FGU could be convinced to put these new releases on RPGNow.com with the old V&V stuff? It would make it possible for me to actually purchase them.

Allen

Allen Shock wrote on Jul 17^th, 2010 at 3:15pm:


I don't at all want to stir everyone up and gets hopes up where they could be dashed, but this wasn't really a surprise to me when I read it.

That's because earlier Bill kind of hinted that the Destroyers from the module "Death Duel with the Destroyers" are different than the Destroyers as shown in the Elementals comic (and I completely agree that they are; one of the characters is completely different, for example).  He sold the rights of the comic Destroyers to Andrew Rev, the former president of Comico, but he still retains the rights to the V&V versions of the characters.   

Speculate on that however you want to....   

I was told a few days ago that FGU will be updating its RPGNow offerings to be current...

dsumner wrote on Jul 17^th, 2010 at 5:14pm:


I hate to continually be a parrot of what dsumner says, but once again I agree 100%!  I even held out on 2.1 until I could get a printed copy (usually I end up printing things out and then have two copies).

AlabasterKnight wrote on Jul 17^th, 2010 at 7:21pm:


Keeping my fingers crossed for a Monday night release.

And Jeff Dee has confirmed that Bill Willingham has already submitted the script for his new V&V project, and it's in production. So, we've got Enter the Gene Pool, from FGU (which should be out next week); Jack Herman's new project; Bill Willingham's new book; and The Neptune Line coming from FGU. Good times ahead folks, good times, make sure you set some cash aside. 

Lots of outstanding stuff coming; it's a great time to be a V&V fan!!!   

Well I know it won't be tonight as its currently in editing... then the authour has to do a signoff before it goes live. I'll keep you guys posted for sure.

I'm making the final edits this evening... and then sending it for the author's final review and approval. He should sign off by morning, so I'd estimate tomorrow mid day for actual release!

PS... the Neptune Line is probably not going to be next, but will be this summer. I've been asked to do more projects to help get things rolling big; there are several adventures ready to go that just need processing, editing, and electronic conversion, so in the interest of moving the chains for the team,I couldn't say no... it's all very exciting.

I'm still drawing and preparing The Neptune Line, it's just with all the releases we have planned, I'm not sure where in the order it will be, as well as subsequent projects I've got in the hopper.

Will keep everyone in the know

I'm pretty sure I couldn't tell you whether they will be POD or from a print run, but I do know that FGU will have a dead tree product here shortly, a giant that will consist of three PDF releases released as a volume... And I believe the cover price will be ultra reasonable, if not a downright steal.

Yes, great things in store for the fan base!

Um... I can tell you it has a fun plot, a great cast of villains, and some water so everyone with those water-related abilities can have some shine...

ETGP is in final proof with the author today; when he gives the signal....

I know I just scanned the art for another adventure book that has been long awaited; I can't divulge the name of this one, but it should be the next following ETGP.

Also, Ken Cliffe has written two more books that he is thrilled to have released, which I will begin the artwork for probably next week for FGU, which is why The Neptune Line will be delayed.

I am jazzed with all the new stuff!

I see that the author has released the cover for preview, I see no reason why not to post it here too....

Nice cover.  Artwork looks good.

I just downloaded my copy.

Once I get done messing around here, I'll be printing out a copy, as I just like having a hard copy to hold in my hands. I'll Print a FC front cover, on hard stock, over the weekend.

Nothing from Jeff Dee announced yet?

Willingham?! Who ever thought we'd live to see this day.

A little factual clarification to the above post: "Into the Sub-Realm" should in no way be mistaken for a NEW Villains and Vigilantes adventure, let alone one produced with the cooperation of Jeff Dee and myself. This is a manuscript Scott Bizar has been sitting on since approximately 1987. Although my name was put on a credit box on some artwork, my involvement, as far as I can recall, pretty much extends to having read the manuscript one time. The Jeff Dee artwork was produced during that time, as well. This was nearly a quarter of a century ago!

In fact, some of this artwork for Into The Sub-Realm had been posted to another message board and had to be taken down. It seems the dates and copyright notices from Jeff Dee's artwork were removed...

Again, to be clear: This very old project has been put into its current form without the knowledge or cooperation of either Jeff or myself. In my opinion, it is just another sad display from an unauthorized publisher producing unlicensed, unofficial material that utilizes our trademark without our permission. 

There is nothing more to be said on the matter and I will have no further comment on it.

Have a nice day, everybody!

Jack Herman

Monkey House Games

Monkey House Jack wrote on Aug 8^th, 2010 at 12:49pm:


1986, to be exact. Those of you who own a copy of Living Legends can verify this for yourselves by turning to page 134.

-Jeff Dee
Monkey House Games

I don't see them as trying to block anything but just stating that this is nothing new, rather something FGU has had sitting around for 20 plus years because they stopped publishing new V&V material 20 plus years ago. Trying to promote it as new material is pretty lame on behalf of FGU if you ask me. Yes some new stuff has been put out by them recently, this is old stuff finally seeing the light of day because FGU wants to deal themselves back into the game they walked away from years ago. I can at least say that what you have put out AK (and the stuff from Dave) is new material, regardless of my feelings for FGU.

Because by saying "edited by Jack Herman! art by Jeff Dee!" in the way it was announced implies their endorsement (and I don't care about excuses here, it was worded in such as way as to use their names to promote the product), and they want it clearly known that they do NOT approve of this product.

Hopefully this explanation will prove helpful. More than likely it will just produce more snarky insults.

Allen

AlabasterKnight wrote on Aug 9^th, 2010 at 9:24pm:

Afraid there won't be too many more GenCon pics, I was too busy doing stuff to take pictures most of the time lol.

Quote:


I can understand the excitement from the authors, no one submits something they have written hoping it never sees print. The only issue I have is that FGU is presenting this as new material instead of stuff that has been sitting around for decades. That and Jeff and Jack's names are purposely being used to promote this in an effort that is somewhere between snake oil and used car sales techniques. It just comes off as sleazy tactics by FGU to me. I don't want to stir up the debate yet again, I am sure that it will be a fine example of the kind of stuff FGU was publishing back in the 80's. I own quite a bit of that stuff and will probably pick up more if it ever finds it's way to my FLGS's used book shelves.

Marvella wrote on Aug 10^th, 2010 at 12:35am:


What if Byrne had lost ownership of the art and a person he was in the middle of a legal proceeding with, printed it against Byrne's wishes, and promoted it with Byrne's name? Would you still buy it? 

As a fan, you love that great early Byrne stuff.. gotta have it. But as a fan do you feel any loyalty to the creator or his wishes?
("You" meaning the generic term, not specifically you, Marvella. btw, welcome to the boards.)

The whole Kirby/Marvel issue was a painful example of publisher rights vs. creator rights.

The guys who created Superman never saw any of the money that's  sustained a comic publishing empire for decades.

Of course it was all done legally. The question is: was it right? 

If Marvel paid Byrne for art, and then I'd have no problem buying a comic that used that art even if it was 30 years later. And they sure as heck would have the right to credit him for the art. In fact, it would seem absolutely right to finally publish the art that was commissioned.

Just because I'm a fan of John Byrne's early art doesn't mean that I support everything he says today--or automatically take his word at face value.

DF, it's pretty clear you're not a lawyer, so I'm not going to speculate about it. If someone has a problem with the legal issues, their lawyers can figure it out. And enough forum writers here and elsewhere have uncovered that the exclusive trademark claims that Herman has made are far from finalized.

If a museum bought a Picasso and years later he said he didn't want them to display the art because he didn't like the museum anymore--and made legal claims that he couldn't legally support--I'd go to the museum and see his art. And buy the postcard of it as well. Because I love his art that much.

To be fair, it's quite possible that Herman honestly forgot that he edited the text. It has been a loooooooong time. He's really not the selling point to me. It's all about the lovely art of Jeff Dee! 

AlabasterKnight wrote on Aug 10^th, 2010 at 11:31am:


Except that this is like your parents analogy, where I am more than happy to stand behind the supportive parent (MHG) who have still kept in contact and supported the kids (fan base) for years, even putting our new, good material as opposed to the absentee parent (FGU) who only show up now to try to weasel some more money.

If MHG does own the rights to the V&V name and the publishing rights to the V&V rules and universe, then FGU should stop putting out material.

I don;t know the whole story (and only Jack and Jeff and their lawyer do), but from what I've read here and in other locations (and of cousre I understand that the MHG forums will have their own bias, but that's not the only place I've followed) it appears that FGU has been sneaky about this whole thing.

No support for new V&V for decades and then suddenly, a bunch of new material just before MHG gets the rights back, and now they look like they are trying to get out as much material as possible before they get everything taken away.

It just looks like a slimy sales move to try to undermine the good V&V name and reputation.  It may not be what FGU is trying to do, but it IS how their shenanigans appear.

But, we will have to see how this whole thing ends up legally of course.

Gigglestick...
What 'shenanigans'?
What's 'sneaky'?

For the record, MHG is only claiming the rights, they have not secured them in any court anywhere, yet everyone keeps drinking the Kool-Aid and believing they were somehow wronged and now they have already reached some settlement that allowed them to break their contracts...

And who created the good name of V&V? Was it Jeff and Jack on their own? No sir, it was a great many contributors for a long time and the fans who love it. They aren't even a creative majority in the responsibility of the game you enjoyed.

Like she said, she thought Jack was dead and we all know Jeff's track record of ego, argumentativeness and angry tonguelashings... that guy releases a competitive product called Living Legends... that's not undermining at all? and how many years before that did he have to actively promote V&V but not do it...? But it was too painful?

Please.

One guy too bitter, one guy dead; perception is reality.

Sorry, in my opinion they are every bit as culpable for the disappearance of V&V as anyone else, if not more so for their 'creator-owned' property, let alone a publisher who had no responsibility whatsoever to take his own personal fortune and prop up a game that lost its steam in the 10 years after its release. Blame is ugly, but equally distributed on this one.

And remember, they cashed all their checks...

interesting...how do you know its a she?

Since when is an author who writes a work that is then published by a publishing company responsible for promoting their work? That is the job of the PUBLISHER! I'm sure Green Ronin is happy to have Steve Kenson help in promoting Mutants and Masterminds but it is the COMPANY's job to keep the game line going.

Let's see...five to seven years is the usual amount of time between editions of a game, which is the best way to reinvigorate flagging sales. That would have been 1987. What happened in 1987? Oh yeah...FGU STOPPED MAKING NEW V&V STUFF. From my understanding that is the core of the issue between the creators and FGU. The so-called "Crisis of Treachery" (to borrow a phrase from another similar event...and to Scott Bizar's credit he didn't go to his fans for a bailout...) happened in the early 90's, right? so what happened between 1987 and then?

Expecting Jeff and Jack to be the ones to promote a game that they were not benefitting from because the publisher was neglecting it is not right. And you are being disingenuous at best about this.

FGU could actually benefit from this. They could cut a deal whereby they avoid legal expenses by letting MHG have the game. They could then do just what they are doing now - releasing their old inventory of unpublished stuff, along with new stuff under the very generous FREE V&V Compatible license that MHG is offering. They would not have to spend a dime on promotion of the game AND they would receive the benefit of getting rid of all that old backstock as well. It really could be a win-win.

They have a "contract". By allowing the property to languish as they have, FGU has not held up their end of the deal, as all of us long-suffering V&V fans well know. Sure, they cashed their checks...you would, too. But how much bigger could those checks have been if FGU had actually done what they should have done? And if the game was selling that badly why set such outrageously high prices to sell the rights?

I'm sorry, but I don't buy a lot of what the FGU side is saying.

Allen

Well, a feminine name and avatar? I'm old school, I hope it's a she...
So Allen,
why are they so able to promote it by themselves now? Have you ever seen a publishing contract? The languishing you speak of wasn't part of the contract.

By the way, MHG has no legal basis to give or take away rights to or from anyone at this point; no judge has given them that power.

If you guys don't believe what I've been saying in forums:
Ask his lawyer. He won't deny these are facts.
He will also tell you that he disagrees about certain things he believes regardless whether (and he will also tell you) he doesn't have all the facts.
That's his job.

The ugly truth is so simple.
Jeff is bitter, and I can sympathize, but that doesn't make him right. Embracing his bitterness and pointing fingers absent the facts are just feeding that stray.

Marvella wrote on Aug 10^th, 2010 at 4:52pm:



OK. I just fell off my chair reading that one.

I have an "Oni"........ and that will not be a topic of debate!!!

Doctor Foom wrote on Aug 10^th, 2010 at 8:45pm:



Oh great,  I came by myself, so no innie for me.  Again...

Marvella wrote on Aug 10^th, 2010 at 10:22am:


Hi. 
I didn't claim to be a lawyer. I don't think I was even debating the legalities. My point was about what's right, not what's legal. And whether the fan of an artist should feel any loyalty at all to that artist.

Marvella, you've made it clear that your love for an artist's work translates in no way to loyalty of any kind to the creator of the art you love so much.

Anyone else?
Thanks.