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About the Combat chart in the book (Read 4310 times)

Gerry Justice Leaguer Offline Graak kill Blue Skins! /> Posts: 1257 Location: Portland, OR Joined: Sep 4^th, 2010 Gender:	About the Combat chart in the book Jan 15^th, 2011 at 8:20am	Print Post
	I'm a little confused here with the combat chart. When it shows a "0" when cross referencing an attack and a defense, does that mean the attacker can't hit, or that the TN is now a 10? I can't find it in the book, so I'd like to clarify what it means


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Display Name Justice Leaguer Offline I Love V&V! Posts: 1851 Joined: Jul 20^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: About the Combat chart in the book Reply #1 - Jan 15^th, 2011 at 9:13am	Print Post
	The zero value is intended as a starting point. Accuracy, weapon bonuses, etc will modify it. So if you use a pistol against Non-corporeal, you have a base zero chance to hit, +3 for the pistol's "to hit" bonus, plus any other bonuses the character might have. I think Majestic told me where the rulebook clarifies it.


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Majestic Justice Leaguer Offline Guardian of Earth Posts: 5179 Location: Seattle Joined: Jun 8^th, 2009 Gender:	Re: About the Combat chart in the book Reply #2 - Jan 15^th, 2011 at 3:09pm	Print Post
	Yes, DN got it right. It simply takes that attack (from it's original number, in parenthesis on the chart where they list the name of it) down to a "0". So if you have Power Blast, which starts at a "16", and a defense takes it down to a "0", that simply means that it cuts that attack down by 16. Other factors: Accuracy, training bonuses to hit, Heightened Expertise, Natural Weaponry, facing, range, etc. can all modify the final number, which must be rolled on a 1d20 once you have a final number.


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Display Name Justice Leaguer Offline I Love V&V! Posts: 1851 Joined: Jul 20^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: About the Combat chart in the book Reply #3 - Jan 15^th, 2011 at 9:57pm	Print Post
	Doesn't the rulebook mention something to this effect? I think you pointed that out to me once...


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John Galactus Offline The Master Cylinder Posts: 6693 Location: Selden Joined: Apr 11^th, 2009 Gender:	Re: About the Combat chart in the book Reply #4 - Jan 15^th, 2011 at 11:09pm	Print Post
	I use a house rule where, except in a few cases, the zero gives you immunity to that particular attack.

	I am scary, very, very scary.
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Gerry Justice Leaguer Offline Graak kill Blue Skins! /> Posts: 1257 Location: Portland, OR Joined: Sep 4^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: About the Combat chart in the book Reply #5 - Jan 16^th, 2011 at 1:53am	Print Post
	Hey guys. Missed most of these replies as I was at Recess. I went with what you all pointed out it meant, which made it hard for some of the heroes to hit certain villains.


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Majestic Justice Leaguer Offline Guardian of Earth Posts: 5179 Location: Seattle Joined: Jun 8^th, 2009 Gender:	Re: About the Combat chart in the book Reply #6 - Jan 16^th, 2011 at 9:10pm	Print Post
	Display Name wrote on Jan 15^th, 2011 at 9:57pm: Doesn't the rulebook mention something to this effect? I think you pointed that out to me once... Yes, it does explain all of that. I know it causes confusion, though, so it probably could explain it all a little bit clearer. Looking forward to hearing how it went at Recess, Gerry. The Destroyers are fairly tough bad guys, and are difficult to defeat!


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Gerry Justice Leaguer Offline Graak kill Blue Skins! /> Posts: 1257 Location: Portland, OR Joined: Sep 4^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: About the Combat chart in the book Reply #7 - Jan 17^th, 2011 at 1:23am	Print Post
	Hey guys! Recess is now over. I had a great time. Both games turned out quite interesting. I'm going to start a separate thread on that in a bit. Just got home, and need to go through email and stuff, and take my medication (forgot to bring my pill, so I need to take one now)


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Imaginos Justice Leaguer Offline Overpowered Hero Posts: 552 Location: Tennessee Joined: Jun 11^th, 2009 Gender:	Re: About the Combat chart in the book Reply #8 - Jan 17^th, 2011 at 7:50am	Print Post
	Your best point of reference is force field. Force field reduces all attacks it defends against to 0. Part of the power also talks about penetrating the force field. Deducing from this, a base of 0 is a base, not the final number. House rules may vary and all that.


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Galaxy Boy Teen Titan Offline I Love V&V! Posts: 217 Joined: Aug 17^th, 2010	Re: About the Combat chart in the book Reply #9 - Jan 19^th, 2011 at 5:25pm	Print Post
	I still think 0 means immunity from the attack. I mean how can a HTH attack affect an incorporeal character?!


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Duroon Avenger Offline I Love V&V! Posts: 376 Location: Gresham, OR Joined: Aug 25^th, 2009 Gender:	Re: About the Combat chart in the book Reply #10 - Jan 19^th, 2011 at 7:05pm	Print Post
	Page 26 of the 2.1 rulebook, second paragraph under the heading of Evasion. Quote: Once the final chances of hitting are determined, the attacker rolls 1d20. If the die roll is equal to or less than the number required to hit, the attack is a success. A die roll of exactly one is always a hit, regardless of the number required; likewise a die roll of 20 always misses. So even if the chance to hit is a 0 a player can still hit if he rolls a 1. How you house rule things is entirely up to you, but that's the way it is by the book.


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Ranger Justice Leaguer Offline Also known as Dracos! Posts: 1543 Location: East Indiana Joined: Aug 29^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: About the Combat chart in the book Reply #11 - Jan 19^th, 2011 at 8:04pm	Print Post
	Galaxy Boy wrote on Jan 19^th, 2011 at 5:25pm: I still think 0 means immunity from the attack. I mean how can a HTH attack affect an incorporeal character?! It's a game? Time to expand our minds Non-corporealness isn't the only defense that provides a "zero" base chance to hit. Should Willpower make it impossible to hit someone in HTH? Should Flame and Ice powers make it impossible to actually be hit by the other? Non-corporeal creatures aren't invisible. If light is reflecting from the creature that means something is hitting it. If light energy, why not power blast? If a power blast then why not a super-dense (Armor/Invulnerability) fist? Superheroes = Super Science I'm sure it's all been said before. I just never understand why folks want uber-realism out of a game where you can shoot flames out of your eyes? We all know that's an ability reserved for ones wife
	« Last Edit: Jan 19^th, 2011 at 8:45pm by Ranger »
	aka Dracos aka DarkStar aka Star Guard
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Display Name Justice Leaguer Offline I Love V&V! Posts: 1851 Joined: Jul 20^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: About the Combat chart in the book Reply #12 - Jan 19^th, 2011 at 8:19pm	Print Post
	I read a comic where the villain could reprogram a computer by reaching inside it while non-corporeal!? What is the physiology of a non-corporeal body? Anyone? Anyone? 01) Heartbeat would likely slow because density loss would make the blood flow faster (MUCH faster). 02) Breathing would likely slow as well and normal air pressure would "feel" a lot thicker to the non-corporeal person. 03) Vision might get a little cloudy as the optic nerves lost density. etc. All of this assumes an actual loss of density and not some kind of extra-dimensional loss (Tardis?) "Scientific" explanations (ie: really good BS) can help give a story life. Kinda makes it "realer", I guess?


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Gerry Justice Leaguer Offline Graak kill Blue Skins! /> Posts: 1257 Location: Portland, OR Joined: Sep 4^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: About the Combat chart in the book Reply #13 - Jan 20^th, 2011 at 12:44am	Print Post
	wow. I never thought my inquiry would spark such a diverse and interesting conversation!


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Galaxy Boy Teen Titan Offline I Love V&V! Posts: 217 Joined: Aug 17^th, 2010	Re: About the Combat chart in the book Reply #14 - Jan 24^th, 2011 at 3:00pm	Print Post
	Ranger wrote on Jan 19^th, 2011 at 8:04pm: Galaxy Boy wrote on Jan 19^th, 2011 at 5:25pm: I still think 0 means immunity from the attack. I mean how can a HTH attack affect an incorporeal character?! It's a game? Time to expand our minds Non-corporealness isn't the only defense that provides a "zero" base chance to hit. Should Willpower make it impossible to hit someone in HTH? Should Flame and Ice powers make it impossible to actually be hit by the other? Non-corporeal creatures aren't invisible. If light is reflecting from the creature that means something is hitting it. If light energy, why not power blast? If a power blast then why not a super-dense (Armor/Invulnerability) fist? Superheroes = Super Science I'm sure it's all been said before. I just never understand why folks want uber-realism out of a game where you can shoot flames out of your eyes? We all know that's an ability reserved for ones wife A character who has ice powers is naturally immune to ice and/or cold based attack. It is a game, true. But at the very least it should have some realism and logic to it. (Galaxy Boy 1, Ranger 0 ) An incorporeal character, traditionally, is immune to physical attacks, but not energy attacks like the example you gave. (Galaxy Boy 2, Ranger -1 ) For example, Willpower probably makes someone immune to pain and what not so HTH attacks will not affect the character. (Galaxy 3, Ranger -2 ) ZERO means IMMUNITY!!! (Galaxy Boy won by big margin. Ranger slinks away, defeated!).


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Display Name Justice Leaguer Offline I Love V&V! Posts: 1851 Joined: Jul 20^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: About the Combat chart in the book Reply #15 - Jan 24^th, 2011 at 5:20pm	Print Post
	I'm absolutely certain Majestic pointed out to me somewhere in the rulebook about the zero value being "modifiable". I can't recall where he pointed it out to me though... Page 22 under 3.2 Basic Combat states "The initial base chance to hit will be equal to the smallest number received." The word "initial" implies that it can be modified. Here's a question: what would Motivator need to roll on d20 if she used a Mind Control attack against a 12th level android with 56 intelligence and 36 charisma who had Willpower and also Sonic Defense?


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Ranger Justice Leaguer Offline Also known as Dracos! Posts: 1543 Location: East Indiana Joined: Aug 29^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: About the Combat chart in the book Reply #16 - Jan 24^th, 2011 at 6:39pm	Print Post
	Galaxy Boy wrote on Jan 24^th, 2011 at 3:00pm: ZERO means IMMUNITY!!! (Galaxy Boy won by big margin. Ranger slinks away, defeated!). Crap, there was a contest with "points" and everything? I must have missed it PS: If I offended I do apologize. Nothing offensive was ever intended PSS: Im 6'2, 240 lbs I'm really not much of a slinker
	« Last Edit: Jan 24^th, 2011 at 6:40pm by Ranger »
	aka Dracos aka DarkStar aka Star Guard
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John Galactus Offline The Master Cylinder Posts: 6693 Location: Selden Joined: Apr 11^th, 2009 Gender:	Re: About the Combat chart in the book Reply #17 - Jan 24^th, 2011 at 7:04pm	Print Post
	Willpower vs HTH is one of the execeptions to the 0 means immune rule in my game.

	I am scary, very, very scary.
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Ranger Justice Leaguer Offline Also known as Dracos! Posts: 1543 Location: East Indiana Joined: Aug 29^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: About the Combat chart in the book Reply #18 - Jan 25^th, 2011 at 12:30am	Print Post
	I've always thought of the Willpower vs HTH thing as the characters ability to read their opponents body language, fighting style, etc. Sort of like the defensive version of Weakness Detection

	aka Dracos aka DarkStar aka Star Guard
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Galaxy Boy Teen Titan Offline I Love V&V! Posts: 217 Joined: Aug 17^th, 2010	Re: About the Combat chart in the book Reply #19 - Jan 25^th, 2011 at 10:28am	Print Post
	That is why Willpower have a PR cost as defense. Sooner or later you can only withstand so much kicks and punches!


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IndieComicsFan Sidekick Offline I Love V&V! Posts: 7 Joined: Feb 20^th, 2011	Re: About the Combat chart in the book Reply #20 - Feb 20^th, 2011 at 8:19am	Print Post
	Just a note Ranger, regarding "realism" in a "fantasy game". This is one of those common errors we hear people make for decades now that when anyone suggests a rule be more "realistic"(re: Logically consistent) that this somehow contradicts the SETTING/genre of the game/campaign. This is wrong. While the setting, for example for D&D is high fantasy, with wizards casting spells, elves etc., someone trying to lift a dead horse off of his fallen comrade still uses his STRENGTH and NOT his "Charisma" to perform the action. THAT is "realistic"...within the fantasy game. Just because well designed rules are(or should be) always logically consistent and make sense does not in any way shape or form contradict the "fantasy" of magic use, superheroes shooting flames from their eyes, etc. You have to separate the MECHANICS from the SETTING/GENRE.


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Ranger Justice Leaguer Offline Also known as Dracos! Posts: 1543 Location: East Indiana Joined: Aug 29^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: About the Combat chart in the book Reply #21 - Feb 20^th, 2011 at 10:30am	Print Post
	Which is exactly why making "0" to hit, the same as being immune to a particular attack, a bad game mechanic. While realistically it might make sense, game play-wise it makes those characters too powerful within the context of the game. There's nothing wrong with realism. It's just my opinion that sometimes people get so fixated on the realism of a particular point/issue they forget to see how that might effect the game as a whole Thanks for your opinion though

	aka Dracos aka DarkStar aka Star Guard
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