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? Re: Combat to hit #s (Read 2002 times)

JByrne_Xman_fan Sidekick Offline I Love V&V! Posts: 30 Location: Mount Vernon, NY Joined: May 4^th, 2013 Gender:	? Re: Combat to hit #s May 7^th, 2013 at 8:50pm	Print Post
	Hi, just have a quick question/clarification. If on the Attack Type vs. Defense Type Chart a (0) is shown (ex. HTH vs. Force Field) do you need a nat 1 to hit or is 0 the # you start to add your mods to?


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xhaosdaemon Teen Titan Offline I Love V&V! Posts: 127 Joined: Jan 5^th, 2011	Re: ? Combat to hit #s Reply #1 - May 7^th, 2013 at 9:08pm	Print Post
	Rules as written state you always hit on a natural 1 regardless of the penalties to hit. That being said some people houserule that a base of 0 to hit from a defense type means you can't hit that defense at all (ex. Non-corporealness where some people rule that your attack passes through harmlessly). However, again, rules as written 0 is the base then you add and subtract modifiers to get your final number needed to hit, with a natural 1 always hitting.


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JByrne_Xman_fan Sidekick Offline I Love V&V! Posts: 30 Location: Mount Vernon, NY Joined: May 4^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: ? Combat to hit #s Reply #2 - May 7^th, 2013 at 9:21pm	Print Post
	Thanks for the info. I'll have to see how things develop over the first few sessions and adjust/adapt as we go along. Was thinking that in order to hit base defense (0) must roll 2 hits ala special attk. Any thoughts?


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Majestic Justice Leaguer Offline Guardian of Earth Posts: 5179 Location: Seattle Joined: Jun 8^th, 2009 Gender:	Re: ? Combat to hit #s Reply #3 - May 8^th, 2013 at 5:24pm	Print Post
	Welcome, JByrne! I've run this game for over three decades, and I've always found it works great using the 0 as intended (where it just makes things really hard to hit, but it's still possible). If you're looking for something in-between the two extremes, your method could work. I've usually found that characters with defenses like Non-Corporealness, Vibratory, or Adaptation (which take a lot of things down to 0) already work really well, so don't need much. Simply adding a Heightened Defense on to characters like that already make them very, very hard to hit, even without requiring a special attack. BTW, I'm a big John Byrne fan, too, especially his older stuff (X-Men, FF, etc.)


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JByrne_Xman_fan Sidekick Offline I Love V&V! Posts: 30 Location: Mount Vernon, NY Joined: May 4^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: ? Combat to hit #s Reply #4 - May 9^th, 2013 at 12:59am	Print Post
	Thanks for the welcome. I find this site very interesting and informative. It was funny, I played and loved V&V back in high school (1980-84) but could not remember the issue with (0) on the combat chart. Got back to the game to hook my nephews on RPing as they didn't take as well to D&D. John Byrne is one of my all time favorite artist/writers when I collected comics. I've started re-reading my old X-men and FF-ton of fun.


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JByrne_Xman_fan Sidekick Offline I Love V&V! Posts: 30 Location: Mount Vernon, NY Joined: May 4^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: ? Combat to hit #s Reply #5 - May 9^th, 2013 at 1:01am	Print Post
	Thanks for the welcome. I find this site very interesting and informative. It was funny, I played and loved V&V back in high school (1980-84) but could not remember the issue with (0) on the combat chart. Got back to the game to hook my nephews on RPing as they didn't take as well to D&D. John Byrne is one of my all time favorite artist/writers when I collected comics. I've started re-reading my old X-men and FF-ton of fun.


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Thunderbolt Justice Leaguer Offline "Justice Like Lightning!" Posts: 745 Location: Indianapolis, IN Joined: Jun 5^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: ? Combat to hit #s Reply #6 - May 10^th, 2013 at 11:40am	Print Post
	Hey I love JByrne's art and stories as well.. he really draws the best looking Wonder Woman I've Ever seen.. Ha~Chaaa! But I REALLY wish he'd finish the Next Men series... I mean really!?!? ... You can't just leave us all hanging like that!!!
	« Last Edit: May 10^th, 2013 at 11:40am by Thunderbolt »
	"...No amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him."
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JByrne_Xman_fan Sidekick Offline I Love V&V! Posts: 30 Location: Mount Vernon, NY Joined: May 4^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: ? Combat to hit #s Reply #7 - May 10^th, 2013 at 4:05pm	Print Post
	Not familiar with his Next Men work will have to look into that. Have they been collected into tpb volumes or are they individual issues?


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Thunderbolt Justice Leaguer Offline "Justice Like Lightning!" Posts: 745 Location: Indianapolis, IN Joined: Jun 5^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: ? Combat to hit #s Reply #8 - May 10^th, 2013 at 5:00pm	Print Post
	JByrne_Xman_fan wrote on May 10^th, 2013 at 4:05pm: Not familiar with his Next Men work will have to look into that. Have they been collected into tpb volumes or are they individual issues? Yep, They were in Graphic Novel format! https://www.google.com/search?q=Next+Men&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:... and... https://www.google.com/search?q=Next+Men&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:off...
	« Last Edit: May 10^th, 2013 at 5:02pm by Thunderbolt »
	"...No amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him."
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JByrne_Xman_fan Sidekick Offline I Love V&V! Posts: 30 Location: Mount Vernon, NY Joined: May 4^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: ? Combat to hit #s Reply #9 - May 10^th, 2013 at 5:11pm	Print Post
	Thunderbolt wrote on May 10^th, 2013 at 5:00pm: JByrne_Xman_fan wrote on May 10^th, 2013 at 4:05pm: Not familiar with his Next Men work will have to look into that. Have they been collected into tpb volumes or are they individual issues? Yep, They were in Graphic Novel format! https://www.google.com/search?q=Next+Men&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:... and... https://www.google.com/search?q=Next+Men&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:off... Thanks will check it out.


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Matt Justice Leaguer Offline Super hero role-playing & Bronze Age comics fan Posts: 525 Location: Lemon Grove, CA Joined: May 14^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: ? Combat to hit #s Reply #10 - May 15^th, 2013 at 11:08am	Print Post
	I am rediscovering V&V so I may be misunderstanding the rules, but looking at the combat chart it seems like there is a bizarrely low chance to hit when two characters slug it out using their fists. Am I wrong?


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Majestic Justice Leaguer Offline Guardian of Earth Posts: 5179 Location: Seattle Joined: Jun 8^th, 2009 Gender:	Re: ? Combat to hit #s Reply #11 - May 16^th, 2013 at 2:41pm	Print Post
	No, it's pretty darn low, and I know some have changed it. In real life, it's true that actually the majority of "attacks" (be it from HTH or from other attacks that use that form, like gunfire) miss. Does this simulate comics real well? Perhaps not. Most HTH based characters have lots of powers that greatly improve their chances of hitting. Heightened Agility, Heightened Expertise, Natural Weaponry, etc. And when they get a high "base # to hit" (like 17 or more), it means they hardly ever miss (being as the subtraction based on the combat table reduce the attack by only 5, as opposed to other defenses which might lower an attack by 16!).


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Matt Justice Leaguer Offline Super hero role-playing & Bronze Age comics fan Posts: 525 Location: Lemon Grove, CA Joined: May 14^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: ? Combat to hit #s Reply #12 - May 16^th, 2013 at 3:34pm	Print Post
	Majestic wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 2:41pm: No, it's pretty darn low, and I know some have changed it. In real life, it's true that actually the majority of "attacks" (be it from HTH or from other attacks that use that form, like gunfire) miss. Does this simulate comics real well? Perhaps not. Most HTH based characters have lots of powers that greatly improve their chances of hitting. I suppose that is true about real life slugfests. As well as the martial artists getting bonuses from powers and what not. I am using the rules as written but just wanted to make sure I wasn't misinterpreting. Part of what I dig about older games is that a lot is left up to the individual and open to modification, as opposed to some games I have seen of late that instead give 200 pages to clarify for nitpickers. Love the feel of V&V!


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Majestic Justice Leaguer Offline Guardian of Earth Posts: 5179 Location: Seattle Joined: Jun 8^th, 2009 Gender:	Re: ? Combat to hit #s Reply #13 - May 16^th, 2013 at 11:55pm	Print Post
	Totally agree! And one way to rationalize it, too, is to consider that some of those "misses" are blocks or parries (you know, when you throw up an arm and more or less deflect a punch). Though there's a complete set of rules for Parrying that was made by Jeff Dee (came out in an old Dragon mag article, then was incorporated into 2.1 from Monkey House Games).


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Matt Justice Leaguer Offline Super hero role-playing & Bronze Age comics fan Posts: 525 Location: Lemon Grove, CA Joined: May 14^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: ? Combat to hit #s Reply #14 - May 17^th, 2013 at 12:06am	Print Post
	I read those parry rules but I prefer what you said about "misses" being interpreted various ways. I really want to refrain from adding any additional rules...I have a hard enough time with 48 pages of rules...same reason I don't want to add any skills rules. I'm just going to do what we always did with D&D where you just gave your character a background and the DM ruled whether your character should be able to attempt something or would know something, or what his chances are and resolve with a roll vs. attribute if necessary. For me, the shorter the character sheet the better. These days Champions requires something like 4 pages for a complete character...I remember 2nd edition (remember? still have the boxed set!) characters fit on 1 page. Stuff like that is why I've settled on V&V. Some would call it "incomplete" or "bare bones," but I find it to be just my cup of tea. Plus the community on this forum is really terrific, I'm glad I found it.


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Majestic Justice Leaguer Offline Guardian of Earth Posts: 5179 Location: Seattle Joined: Jun 8^th, 2009 Gender:	Re: ? Combat to hit #s Reply #15 - May 18^th, 2013 at 4:15am	Print Post
	Good points, Matt. That's one of the beauties of V&V, and you can leave all of that other stuff to role-playing.


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