Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) The Future of V&V (Read 3247 times)
Ramble
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The Future of V&V
Oct 15th, 2016 at 5:18pm
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Recently, there was a poll that asked  - "Is V&V dead?"

Now, if you think that V&V has no future, and that it's dead, then stop reading. This thread is not for you.

On the other hand... if you think that V&V has a future, and if you think there is something that we can do to grow the game, and broaden it's appeal or do what other games have developed that V&V needs to consider... then please speak your mind and say what you'd like to see.

Thanks.
RAMBLE
  
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Re: The Future of V&V
Reply #1 - Oct 15th, 2016 at 10:37pm
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Yes, V&V has a future.
  
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Re: The Future of V&V
Reply #2 - Oct 16th, 2016 at 8:29pm
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Okay... what do you think it will look like in the year 2020? Being a legionnaire (substitute or not), perhaps you have greater insight on what we can expect to see in future?

RAMBLE
« Last Edit: Oct 16th, 2016 at 8:29pm by Ramble »  
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Re: The Future of V&V
Reply #3 - Oct 16th, 2016 at 11:20pm
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Fair question, Ramble, especially considering the legal crapstorm just recently concluded.

My appreciation of these matters is coloured somewhat by personal inclinations; I have an inherent dislike of RPGs (and all substantive reading material, really) that are purely digital/online-based.  I want something that I can hold in my hands, and transport from location to location with the sole concern being whether or not the book/s stay in good condition, not whether I'm in satellite communication range or have enough power to keep device x working until I can find an outlet.

That stated, I'll make it clear: Yes, I believe V&V does have a future...as a hardcopy, printed work/s.  There's a strong and dedicated enough customer base to ensure that there's some kind of action going on, and a low enough overhead for production to make forays into the retail market not a life or death proposition.  By comparison, I think of the recurring, ongoing interest in Indian motorcycles: there's certainly a very appreciable customer base ready to make purchases, but the cost of production, in relation, not to mention distribution, housing, overhead, sales and advertising makes the sale of anything more than a few prototype items not much more than a pipe dream.  Indian (the company) would have to sell thousands in a single production cycle to make matters even vaguely worthwhile; V&V, as a printed RPG, has no such concerns, although the pure numeric customer base might be far less than Indian's.

What I do see as the greater problem, potentially, is the name (though not the actual property) now shared equally by two separate and uncooperative outlets.  How many people is MHG going to attract with V&V/MPM?  Will the redone modules, and new works, start to pull in the numbers on a steady and continuous basis?  Will FGU be able to assemble a crew that will (as discussed) put together an entirely new V&V system that shares only the name with the original game engine?  Would this spark a competition between the two, resulting in advertising wars, the search for free publicity, and the ongoing array of dirty tricks that one or both sides might pull - and might this end up inflicting such costs and damages to both sides, erasing profits, both real and potential, along with inculcated misery that they might decide mutually to hang up the .45s and call it a day?

I am very much hoping that, as MHG - as indicated in public releases - gets its books moving out to customers as the post-Thanksgiving/pre-Christmas season moves in, is able to maintain its distance from FGU's population, and vice versa, and avoid deliberate or accidental irritation of parties that may be quite happy to light the fuse and watch the explosions.  This, I think, is the only thing that holds a realistic threat to V&V's future, MHG and FGU versions alike.  The two companies are very likely to make sure the fence stays good, high, sturdy and painted bright to mark divisions between corporate houses, so as to avoid any stupid, completely unproductive conflicts; it remains to be seen if the attendant populations can also observe politesse.  If there happens to be an opportunity for MHG and FGU to start finding some common ground, it could end up pretty much guaranteeing V&V's domination of the superhero RPG market for years to come.
  
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Re: The Future of V&V
Reply #4 - Oct 17th, 2016 at 1:01am
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Ramble wrote on Oct 16th, 2016 at 8:29pm:
Okay... what do you think it will look like in the year 2020? Being a legionnaire (substitute or not), perhaps you have greater insight on what we can expect to see in future?

RAMBLE


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Re: The Future of V&V
Reply #5 - Oct 17th, 2016 at 2:09am
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polarboy wrote on Oct 17th, 2016 at 1:01am:
Ramble wrote on Oct 16th, 2016 at 8:29pm:
Okay... what do you think it will look like in the year 2020? Being a legionnaire (substitute or not), perhaps you have greater insight on what we can expect to see in future?

RAMBLE


I think you're mistaking me for Dream Girl.


Wow. You got me there.  Wink

RAMBLE

« Last Edit: Oct 18th, 2016 at 1:32am by Ramble »  
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Re: The Future of V&V
Reply #6 - Oct 17th, 2016 at 2:45am
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Tempest wrote on Oct 16th, 2016 at 11:20pm:
Fair question, Ramble, especially considering the legal crapstorm just recently concluded.

My appreciation of these matters is coloured somewhat by personal inclinations; I have an inherent dislike of RPGs (and all substantive reading material, really) that are purely digital/online-based.  I want something that I can hold in my hands, and transport from location to location with the sole concern being whether or not the book/s stay in good condition, not whether I'm in satellite communication range or have enough power to keep device x working until I can find an outlet.

That stated, I'll make it clear: Yes, I believe V&V does have a future...as a hardcopy, printed work/s.  There's a strong and dedicated enough customer base to ensure that there's some kind of action going on, and a low enough overhead for production to make forays into the retail market not a life or death proposition.  By comparison, I think of the recurring, ongoing interest in Indian motorcycles: there's certainly a very appreciable customer base ready to make purchases, but the cost of production, in relation, not to mention distribution, housing, overhead, sales and advertising makes the sale of anything more than a few prototype items not much more than a pipe dream.  Indian (the company) would have to sell thousands in a single production cycle to make matters even vaguely worthwhile; V&V, as a printed RPG, has no such concerns, although the pure numeric customer base might be far less than Indian's.

What I do see as the greater problem, potentially, is the name (though not the actual property) now shared equally by two separate and uncooperative outlets.  How many people is MHG going to attract with V&V/MPM?  Will the redone modules, and new works, start to pull in the numbers on a steady and continuous basis?  Will FGU be able to assemble a crew that will (as discussed) put together an entirely new V&V system that shares only the name with the original game engine?  Would this spark a competition between the two, resulting in advertising wars, the search for free publicity, and the ongoing array of dirty tricks that one or both sides might pull - and might this end up inflicting such costs and damages to both sides, erasing profits, both real and potential, along with inculcated misery that they might decide mutually to hang up the .45s and call it a day?

I am very much hoping that, as MHG - as indicated in public releases - gets its books moving out to customers as the post-Thanksgiving/pre-Christmas season moves in, is able to maintain its distance from FGU's population, and vice versa, and avoid deliberate or accidental irritation of parties that may be quite happy to light the fuse and watch the explosions.  This, I think, is the only thing that holds a realistic threat to V&V's future, MHG and FGU versions alike.  The two companies are very likely to make sure the fence stays good, high, sturdy and painted bright to mark divisions between corporate houses, so as to avoid any stupid, completely unproductive conflicts; it remains to be seen if the attendant populations can also observe politesse.  If there happens to be an opportunity for MHG and FGU to start finding some common ground, it could end up pretty much guaranteeing V&V's domination of the superhero RPG market for years to come.


Thank you, Tempest. I appreciate your response.

I must admit that I prefer the physical copy as well. I know that there is a heady joy with being able to take 30 books with you anywhere in your device, but I'm a writer and trying to keep 7 screens open on a laptop or a smaller device makes me ill.

I agree with your point about Indian cycles, and yeah, the overhead question is an interesting one that I don't think people have talked about. The latest FGU books (my own World War II Super Soldiers for example) have full colour illustrations for readers to enjoy (above and beyond the counters and the front/back art). But I think the paper version may still be B&W. Do you as a consumer want a low  price point or do you want your book to have full colour illustrations? If my upcoming Giant for WWII is about 150 pages, are you okay with paying an extra buck or two for that extra content? What if I made another Giant that was 200 pages. Would you rather have bigger books or smaller books? If Steve and his team come out with a V&V comic book - will you buy it? Does it matter if it's an online comic?

Shifting to FGU and MHG... it seems like the trend is that FGU will keep the name/brand and has lost the rule book and MHG has kept the rule book and lost the brand. Therefore, I would suggest that over time the two companies will move farther away from each other and into similar but distinct niches. Given that both MHG and FGU are going to be coming out with new systems, it will be interesting to see what finally shakes out and whether people embrace the new rules, reject them or come up with home brews that mesh the best parts of both systems in ways Bizar/Dee/Herman never intended.

The future is wide open.

RAMBLE
« Last Edit: Oct 17th, 2016 at 2:55am by Ramble »  
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Re: The Future of V&V
Reply #7 - Oct 17th, 2016 at 11:30am
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I personally want print books.  PDF is fine for reading in bed at night, but for most gaming, I want print.

But for V&V, I think to compete with more "modern" direction, it needs to offer simpler.  The whole concept of "dials" or "switches" that can be flipped to allow different levels of granularity is a direction the game should go.

I like the Carrying Capacity calculation, but I don't know that MHG isn't going the right direction by getting rid of it.  I would like to be able to create characters without needing my laptop for my excel character sheet or a calculator.

So something that makes it much simpler, easier to get into, less tracking on stuff even.  This may be tragic, but maybe even supporting more storygaming instead of traditional RPGing.
  
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Re: The Future of V&V
Reply #8 - Oct 17th, 2016 at 3:04pm
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V&V has always been our go to supers game. The system is easy and we can pretty much have a character made inside of 20 minutes and then the hard part, coming up with a good back story. My friends and i have been gaming for 25+ years and always tell newbies to give V&V a try. Most do come back and say that they enjoy the system and a lot of them still play.
  
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Re: The Future of V&V
Reply #9 - Oct 17th, 2016 at 4:49pm
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V&V is my favorite supers game.  I just recently off-loaded 99.5% of my Hero Games stuff (kept a copy of Ultimate Martial Artist).  I also got rid of thousands of dollars of other used RPGs and board games.  Just got rid of all of this stuff on Sept 24.  So when I talk about opening the game up (up above), please realize that I say this with the intent that this IS my favorite single RPG.  Not the one with the most play, but my favorite.

So when I say I want to open up options, it is strictly 100% because I want to bring more people into the game.  Bzut having to use a calculator or spreadsheet for character creation turns people off.  That is one reason I think MHG might be onto something with the concept of some simplification.  And I say this as someone who did not back their KS.
  
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Re: The Future of V&V
Reply #10 - Oct 18th, 2016 at 8:33pm
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Imaginos wrote on Oct 17th, 2016 at 11:30am:
I personally want print books.  PDF is fine for reading in bed at night, but for most gaming, I want print.

But for V&V, I think to compete with more "modern" direction, it needs to offer simpler.  The whole concept of "dials" or "switches" that can be flipped to allow different levels of granularity is a direction the game should go.

I like the Carrying Capacity calculation, but I don't know that MHG isn't going the right direction by getting rid of it.  I would like to be able to create characters without needing my laptop for my excel character sheet or a calculator.

So something that makes it much simpler, easier to get into, less tracking on stuff even.  This may be tragic, but maybe even supporting more storygaming instead of traditional RPGing.


So, in order to get away from the calculator, I'd think that you're suggesting a new way to determine Carrying Capacity and Hit Points. So, are you thinking that you want to take math out of the equation entirely or do you think modern consumers will tolerate the use of addition and subtraction?

I've always thought that character generation in V&V was pretty speedy, but then again after a few decades I'm no longer impartial. One of the things I've thought about is the final product you're left with when the character creation process is over. How does a new V&V character stack-up against a champion, M&M, or Supers character? Don't get me wrong, I know which one we prefer based on the fact you're in this forum, BUT is there anything we can learn from other systems?

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Re: The Future of V&V
Reply #11 - Oct 18th, 2016 at 8:35pm
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marcus wrote on Oct 17th, 2016 at 3:04pm:
V&V has always been our go to supers game. The system is easy and we can pretty much have a character made inside of 20 minutes and then the hard part, coming up with a good back story. My friends and i have been gaming for 25+ years and always tell newbies to give V&V a try. Most do come back and say that they enjoy the system and a lot of them still play.


Thanks Marcus! I'm glad you're enjoying V&V!

Is there anything you'd like to see to make it better? Is there anything we should NEVER EVER change? Ask your friends - I'd like to hear their thoughts.
Smiley

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Re: The Future of V&V
Reply #12 - Oct 18th, 2016 at 9:05pm
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Imaginos wrote on Oct 17th, 2016 at 4:49pm:
V&V is my favorite supers game.  I just recently off-loaded 99.5% of my Hero Games stuff (kept a copy of Ultimate Martial Artist).  I also got rid of thousands of dollars of other used RPGs and board games.  Just got rid of all of this stuff on Sept 24.  So when I talk about opening the game up (up above), please realize that I say this with the intent that this IS my favorite single RPG.  Not the one with the most play, but my favorite.

So when I say I want to open up options, it is strictly 100% because I want to bring more people into the game.  Bzut having to use a calculator or spreadsheet for character creation turns people off.  That is one reason I think MHG might be onto something with the concept of some simplification.  And I say this as someone who did not back their KS.


Hey Imaginos! Thanks for being clear about your position.

I want to expand the game too... so, I take your suggestions seriously. Here are some questions for you:

- Do you think that we should have a V&V lite type of character? In that version... the GM does the math but the players just don't see/do it. So the character sheet wouldn't include hit mod, but would include Hit Points. It would cover Basic HTH Damage, but not Carrying Capacity. Would that help new players get into the game? The hidden information might be included in another sheet for GMs to track certain information.
- Do you want rules for dealing with wealth?
- Do you want rules for charging opponents? Pinning them? Rules for cover? Tripping opponents?

Thoughts?

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Re: The Future of V&V
Reply #13 - Oct 19th, 2016 at 3:20am
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Ramble wrote on Oct 18th, 2016 at 9:05pm:
Do you want rules for dealing with wealth?



definitely.
especially for the inventing process
  
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Re: The Future of V&V
Reply #14 - Oct 19th, 2016 at 1:01pm
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merteuil wrote on Oct 19th, 2016 at 3:20am:
Ramble wrote on Oct 18th, 2016 at 9:05pm:
Do you want rules for dealing with wealth?



definitely.
especially for the inventing process

Diverting somewhat off the OP topic, but I agree completely.  The money issue, in superhero comics, really only seems to become a relevancy when the plot and/or character setting needs it to be; nonetheless, having some sort of mechanic in place to address the issue in a game engine, if you want to, would be much appreciated.

Steve Kenson's Mutants & Masterminds 2e had a very nice, straightforward system for handling wealth, and the cost of specific items, banal and superpowered storytelling alike.  Rather than using dollars, or any kind of monetary system, characters had points they used from a wealth base, established at character creation and possibly amended as the game/s went on, to acquire items.  Although V&V 2.0 - and presumably MPM - used a dollars monetary system, I agree with merteuil that having some sort of system in place to look at purchasing everything from cave-bases inhabited by bats to orbiting satellite headquarters to groceries for next week's supergroup anniversary party would be nice to have, in the name of building characters that have realistic (and points from which the GM could construct plots) lives.
  
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Re: The Future of V&V
Reply #15 - Oct 19th, 2016 at 1:13pm
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We never really worried about money when it came to inventions.  The cost was covered by inventing points.  In regard to bases and whatnot, it was based on what the character's background was.  If there was justification, they had the batcave or fortress of solitude.  If there wasn't, they operated out of wherever.

But yeah, that may not fly with a lot of people.
  
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Re: The Future of V&V
Reply #16 - Oct 19th, 2016 at 1:54pm
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I have a wealth stat that the player rolls (3d6) at character creation.  You want something? Give me a d20 roll. Of course the GM gives a modifier from cheap to priceless.
  

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Re: The Future of V&V
Reply #17 - Oct 24th, 2016 at 2:33am
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So wealth is something you'd like to see addressed.
What else?
What do you want explained completely so that you don't need to build house rules for?

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Re: The Future of V&V
Reply #18 - Nov 7th, 2016 at 9:21am
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Speaking for myself, I want both a hardcopy and an  electronic version of every book I have.  I use the hardcopies for somethings and have them open when running a game.  I also have them open on the laptop and nothing beat finding what you need instantly with a quick CRTL+F.

I'll throw my vote in for clearer and better rules for handling of wealth and inventing as well.
  
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Re: The Future of V&V
Reply #19 - Nov 7th, 2016 at 9:40pm
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More rules for Wealth - Check.
Multiple Formats for books - Check.

What else would you like to see?

Smiley

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Re: The Future of V&V
Reply #20 - Nov 7th, 2016 at 10:31pm
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A means of predicting the right 6 lottery numbers with the powerball. Grin
  
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