Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) That other V&V... (Read 331 times)
Ironnerd
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That other V&V...
Jan 29th, 2018 at 12:41pm
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I did a few searches, but could not find any threads on MHG's V&V 3.0 "Mighty Protectors".

I'm just wondering if anyone else has read it, and what they think.
  

John "Ironnerd" Adams
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Majestic
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Re: That other V&V...
Reply #1 - Jan 30th, 2018 at 3:39pm
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I've not only read it, but played it a number of times (alongside Jeff Dee, with Jack Herman as GM) and run it many times.

I think it's great.  Same old V&V, but the combat system is much streamlined.  It now has a few powers (like Grapnel) that were really lacking in the older game.  I wish it had a Skill system, but that can probably easily be tacked on.  Overall you can make just about any character, and it plays smooth and fun.  I really like the critical (success and fumble) charts.  And everything is WAY more balanced in this version.
  
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Re: That other V&V...
Reply #2 - Jan 30th, 2018 at 4:51pm
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I am glad to know someone likes it. I figure it'll be a love/hate thing. I'm a little disappointed.
The reasons you seem to like V&V 3.0 are also common with BESM (from 1997ish), and it has the Skill System that V&V is lacking.

Of course no game system is perfect, but it does seem like Mr. Herman and Mr. Dee were a little tunnel-visioned when they built V&V 3.0. Why would I spend my money on a game that seems to be missing an important sub-system when I can buy another game that allows me to make a super-hero, has a very nice combat system, and is more complete?

It's not good enough to be better than V&V 2nd Edition, they needed to be better than the other dozen or so games in the same or similar genres.

Maybe I just read to many game systems.
« Last Edit: Jan 31st, 2018 at 12:09pm by Ironnerd »  

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Re: That other V&V...
Reply #3 - Jan 31st, 2018 at 7:45pm
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I was going to answer in the other thread here mentioning MP/3.0 (I thought it was a Poll called "Is V&V Dead?"), but that threads appears to be gone.

I suppose some people will like/love it and some will hate it.  In play, I have watched many other people as well (like when Jeff ran it at Gary Con) and their anecdotal evidence has been that people generally really, really like it.

Personally, while I really like it, I think it's just a tad too complex to ever be a mainstream hit, even if that were possible (with the fractured superhero RPG niche market).

FWIW, though, it does seem to be doing okay.  Not only did they raise a ton of money on their Kickstarter (showing there's some fans and interest out there), but there's two different V&V 3.0 events at GaryCon this year (one of them is an 8 hour marathon session!) and I will likely run a pick-up game there as well.  So 3 games by 3 different GMs.  I don't remember seeing any Champions games, and there's very little other superhero games being played there (a few FASERIP and DC Heroes and the like).

Also, for this year's (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links), it looks like it is (much like the 80s) a race between Champions and V&V for the top spot (most loved new product), with V&V ahead of Mutants and Masterminds and solidly in the #2 spot.

So just saying that there does appear to be a bit of love out there for it, so some people must be really enjoying it.
  
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Re: That other V&V...
Reply #4 - Jan 31st, 2018 at 10:15pm
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It's no mystery why Champions and V&V would be 1st and 2nd respectively in a poll about popular Super Hero Games. Both are classic Super Hero Games that people grew up playing and really love.

Look, I'm not AK with some completely insane personal grudge against MHG. I'm a gamer who sees a game that was released in 2017 that looks like an "also-ran" game from the late 1990's.

Many systems are less complicated, can create basically any character, have interesting powers, a slick combat system, and also include the much-desired skill system.
For a quick comparison, go to DriveThru RPG and look up items using the ICONS Super Hero RPG Rules, you get about 360-something returns and 21 ratings giving it 4.8 out of 5 stars.
Pull up MHG, you get 27 items and 4 reviews with an average of 4.5 out of 5 stars
FGU V&V gives you 55 items and no reviews (because the rules are no longer available on the site)

If you like V&V 3.0, play it. I actually hope Mr. Dee and Mr. Herman make a mint from sales of their new product line. I'm always happy when a gamer enjoys a game, but you've stated it is a bit too complex and lacks a skill system so I have to wonder why you enjoy it more than a more streamlined game with a skill system. Because it's V&V? Because you got to play it with Jeff Dee? Or because it is a solid game that is as close to the game you would wish for as any game could ever be?
« Last Edit: Feb 1st, 2018 at 12:27pm by Ironnerd »  

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Re: That other V&V...
Reply #5 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 4:48pm
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There's a number of reasons I like it, but being able to play a game with Jeff isn't really one of them.

In most ways I prefer the more basic combat system of this version (roll a d20, and no more having to consult an elaborate chart or charts to figure out if it hit) to 2.1.  The basic task and resolution system makes sense, and the overall general mechanics work very smoothly.  For instance, being able to quickly and easily figure out how much knockback AND how much of the substance they hit is displaced is brilliant (and something I've not seen any other games figure out).

I still love most of the art in the book, and the vast majority of the characters and worldbuilding (though I only use a portion of it) is really well done and well thought out.

As for those other games, while I have enjoyed a number of others, especially SUPERS! and Marvel Heroic Roleplaying, I haven't found another that captures the fun and magic that V&V does.

I suppose the nostalgia factor does factor into those two getting high marks, but you have to admit that they're at least keying into something with the playing community.  If every (or even most) player had the same reaction you did to MP, it wouldn't be getting so many votes for "best game", I wouldn't think.  Not that your response is badwrongfun.  I can totally understand and respect that we don't always all like the same things.  But clearly it's resonating with some.
  
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Re: That other V&V...
Reply #6 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 5:01pm
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Dang... No "like" button.

3.0 just didn't resonate with me. I doubt FGU's V&V 3rd ed will resonate with me either. Not that either is (or will be) a bad game. I guess it's the same reasons people picked Champions over V&V way back when. I thought Champions was really sub-par compared to V&V. Maybe, after 30+ years, the tables have turned.

Laters.
  

John "Ironnerd" Adams
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Re: That other V&V...
Reply #7 - Apr 11th, 2018 at 1:58pm
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I'm a little late to this topic, but I am happy to see that Mighty Protectors can be discussed here.  Personally, as a 'sequel' to V&V, i feel like it should be discussed by those of us who loved the original.

As a teenager in the 1980s, I played both V&V and Champions extensively.  I wouldn't personally say that Champions was "sub par" compared to V&V. V&V was much quicker to learn, and character creation was simpler.  But Champions had that then-novel point buy character creation system.  It took a lot of time, but that was the trade-off.  Multi-party combat in Champions could take a lot longer to resolve than in V&V.  But the core mechanic of all task resolution, including combat, was actually simpler, and required reference to fewer tables.  So once you knew the Hero System, and house-ruled combat to streamline it, it was every bit as playable as V&V, and in my experience was an even more playable and balanced system, actually.  But that initial 'learning curve' was, no doubt, a deterrent.  And the early editions of Champions featured very amateurish artwork and typewriter-like layout, which simply could not compare to V&V supplements with polished, professional artwork by Jeff Dee and Bill Willingham and Bill Reinhold and Pat Zircher, and more.

I haven't had the opportunity to play Mighty Protectors, but I bought a copy of it 6 months ago. 

I havent played it because, in all the years it was delayed, I came to play a super hero RPG with my elementary school age daughter using Icons.  we had a great time with it.  But she has since moved on and grown, and only recently asked to play D&D with me, as she and several of her friends noiw like a show called, I think, "Stranger Things," in which the game is apparently referenced repeatedly.

So i can't comment on the playability of MP. And even if I could, I can't imagine that i would have anything insightful to add on top of Doug's feedback. 

But for whatever it's worth, my own opinion  is that, reading it, the game felt to me like a successor/sequel to V&V, as opposed to  merely a revised new 'edition'/iteration of V&V 2.0. If anything, I would've preferred a lot more details about the MP universe. I never personally got the sense that Jeff Dee and Jack Herman set out to 'revolutionize' the state-of-the-art of super hero RPGs.


  
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Re: That other V&V...
Reply #8 - Apr 11th, 2018 at 5:13pm
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You should listen to your daughter and check out "Stranger Things" on Netflix, Dan.

It's a love letter to the 80s, and though it's a fantastic series enjoyed by all, I think those of us who have some nostalgia for the 80s appreciate it even more!
  
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Re: That other V&V...
Reply #9 - Apr 13th, 2018 at 11:39am
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Totally!  I really do need to check it out, Doug! If my favorite NBA teams crash out of the playoffs, that may be sooner rather than later!
  
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Re: That other V&V...
Reply #10 - May 24th, 2018 at 8:39pm
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Oh yeah... Stranger Things was goood... Also check out all the Marvel shows. Luke Cage was epic. Dare Devil and Iron Fist were straight up great. Jessica Jones did nothing for me, but the wife LOVED it.

Icons is also a nice game.

I've looked around and there are a LOT of Super Hero Games on the market. I think the big thing V&V has going for it is Nostalgia. Take that away, and it starts to look like a little clunky - but the rough bits CAN be sanded smooth. Whatever FGU comes up with to replace V&V 2nd Edition must not be "Better than Mighty Protectors", but better than everything else while retaining the nostalgia aspect.

No small task.
  

John "Ironnerd" Adams
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Re: That other V&V...
Reply #11 - May 25th, 2018 at 1:39pm
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Another great series is The Punisher.  I think it might be the best of the Marvel Netflix shows, and all of them have been good.
  
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Re: That other V&V...
Reply #12 - May 25th, 2018 at 3:04pm
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Hmmm....
If that's true, it must be pretty freaking good.
  

John "Ironnerd" Adams
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Re: That other V&V...
Reply #13 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 2:47pm
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Majestic wrote on May 25th, 2018 at 1:39pm:
Another great series is The Punisher.  I think it might be the best of the Marvel Netflix shows, and all of them have been good.


I thought it was very good.
  
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