Normal Topic Time travel in V&V (spoilers for Sands of Time) (Read 419 times)
Display Name
Justice Leaguer
*****
Offline


I Love V&V!

Posts: 1851
Joined: Jul 20th, 2010
Gender: Male
Time travel in V&V (spoilers for Sands of Time)
Oct 17th, 2021 at 8:20am
Print Post  
Sigh...  So time travel just doesn't work in V&V in a way that makes a fantastic and scary/exciting story!

To begin with, time travel is a subset of Dimensional Travel.  It's "official" name would be "Dimensional Travel, type 2."  The character has a base chance of I x 3 vs percentage dice to succeed in travelling to a time of their choice.  The PR cost would be ten.  Failure results in consulting a chart to determine how far off-target the character is from their chosen time.  Failure also means that the character is unable to use Time Travel to return to their time of origin without additional (paranormal?) means.

The rules also provide an option for players to transport more than just themselves.  Given the "social" nature of RPGs, it would likely be to a player's advantage to choose the "portal" option instead of the "teleport" option.

Now here's where it starts to let us down.  The rules explicitly say that time traveler(s) are "...shifting to an alternate plane which *simulates* a time and place on Earth, but it is not the certain future or the actual past."  This verbage blurs the lines between D&D and V&V, so a better way of stating it would probably be "...shifting to an alternate universe."  So...  The difference between the types of Dimensional Travel are nothing more than cosmetic.

Let's pause for a second to analyze this.  Based on this broad view of time travel, you could say that the tv series Sliders is time travel!?  But instead of moving forward or backward in time, they're moving "sideways."  In other words: they're moving to the same point in time in a different universe.  With a slight adjustment, Quinn could conceivable modify his device into a time machine.  But their problem of finding their way home would remain.

I use the Sliders tv show as an analogy to provide a more palatable explanation of time travel in V&V.  It becomes easier to understand exactly WHY time travel lets us down in V&V.: you can't change the "real" past or the "real" future because you're going to someone else's and not your own!  This also solves a lot of the paradox problems, btw: going back in time and killing yourself as an infant would have no repercussions in your original timeline.  ALTHOUGH, a mischievous GM might say something like "you changed the past and caused this new timeline to diverge from it's natural course.  So now you can't plot your way back to your original timeline until you change it back."

"But what about Sands of Time?"  While not easily explained, it CAN be explained: someone in an alternate timeline travelled to the past and just happened to land in the player's past and changed it.  When the players travelled back in time to stop them, they actually travelled to a DIFFERENT universe and stopped yet ANOTHER alternate enemy there.  However, at the same time, alternates of the PLAYERS also travelled back in time to the player's past and performed exactly the same actions as the players!  Is your head hurting, yet?  Lol!  When the players and all alternates return to their own timelines, they won't see the difference unless the GM trips up and forgets a detail that SHOULD HAVE created a paradox and/or a major change in the timeline.  However, the GM can say that since the players didn't change their own timeline, this paradox or change didn't come into effect.

So, in essence, the word "paradox" can be replaced by "plot seed!"  Lol!

But not being able to change the "real" past basically nerfs time travel and makes it harder to get a good story out of it.  This is really too bad, because it neutralizes the awesome plot seed I had in mind for a new adventure for V&V!  Sigh...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Majestic
Justice Leaguer
*****
Offline


Guardian of Earth

Posts: 5179
Location: Seattle
Joined: Jun 8th, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: Time travel in V&V (spoilers for Sands of Time)
Reply #1 - Oct 29th, 2021 at 4:29pm
Print Post  
Like most things with RPGs, GMs are encouraged to change what they don't like.

Thus, since I first encountered V&V, I've allowed time travel stories in my games (both to the past and future) that are actual time travel and can affect the timeline.

That is separate (in my game) from travel to other dimensions.

I agree with you that limiting it (as in the RAW) really nerfs the opportunities for fun (and consequential) stories.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John
Galactus
*****
Offline


The Master Cylinder

Posts: 6691
Location: Selden
Joined: Apr 11th, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: Time travel in V&V (spoilers for Sands of Time)
Reply #2 - Oct 29th, 2021 at 7:49pm
Print Post  
I am very particular about time travel. So far I have had a few time travel stories in my games. One was set 50,000 years ago so no real paradoxes there, one 500 years in the future, so same there.

Now there is a current story about a character traveling back to Just before his birth. He met his mother and was careful not to let her know who he was.

He then moved far away from anyone he knows from his present to avoid paradox.

I am of the opinion that you can not change the past. Time either happened or it didn’t. And since it happened, well that eliminates the later choice.

I think only two movies did time travel correctly, 12 Monkeys and Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban.


You can not change the past. If you do it create a paradox, you create a loop in the time line that breaks off from the mainstream at the intersection point. This cleans the time line to one straight, perfect line and traps the time traveler in a fragile time bubble that can be destroyed, killing the time traveler.

So be warned…
  

I am scary, very, very scary.
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Display Name
Justice Leaguer
*****
Offline


I Love V&V!

Posts: 1851
Joined: Jul 20th, 2010
Gender: Male
Re: Time travel in V&V (spoilers for Sands of Time)
Reply #3 - Oct 30th, 2021 at 11:07am
Print Post  
What did the Terminator get wrong?  The first movie, I mean.  I think they changed it for the 2nd and changed it again each time they wanted a sequel and ended up at the contradictory "mankind is fated to have a nuclear war" in Terminator Genesys (or however they spelled it.)  And that's after Sarah carved "no fate" into a picnic table in Terminator 2.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John
Galactus
*****
Offline


The Master Cylinder

Posts: 6691
Location: Selden
Joined: Apr 11th, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: Time travel in V&V (spoilers for Sands of Time)
Reply #4 - Oct 31st, 2021 at 1:36pm
Print Post  
I forgot about the Terminator. From what I recall the first movie was spot on.
  

I am scary, very, very scary.
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Display Name
Justice Leaguer
*****
Offline


I Love V&V!

Posts: 1851
Joined: Jul 20th, 2010
Gender: Male
Re: Time travel in V&V (spoilers for Sands of Time)
Reply #5 - Nov 13th, 2021 at 5:09pm
Print Post  
The Terminator and 12 Monkeys seemed to be the same kind of time travel, if not the same method.  12 Monkeys' time machine seemed to be safer but with less precision than Skynet's.  I think these were both "Predestination Paradoxes."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_paradoxes

Hmmm...  A bit off-topic, but this gives me a sudden craving for "Officer John McClane survives the massacre at West Highland Police Station and pursues the Terminator and Sarah.  Shortly after their intimate encounter at Tiki Motel, Kyle is killed from multiple gunshot wounds and blunt force trauma sustained during the accident with the truck.  Officer McClane arrives and then the movie REALLY heats up!"

But yeah...  I didn't see Harry Potter, 'cuz I couldn't get past the "children's tone" of the first few minutes of the first movie.  How did that one work?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
 
>