Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10
th, 2009 at 9:53am:
So anyway, I'm of the opinion that you don't need a Will stat in V&V as the Charisma stat is already covering that off.
I tend to disagree.
Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10
th, 2009 at 9:53am:
Here's my case for Charisma as Will, in a nutshell:
In the real world: People that are leaders (higher Cha) are usually confident and self assured (higher Will).
This seems to me to be unsupported. Will doesn't imply confidence or self-assurance, for one thing. And the example of Bill Clinton, an extremely charismatic man and leader of the free world demonstrating dubious Will in not resisting the temptation to womanize, even at the risk of great personal cost.
Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10
th, 2009 at 9:53am:
In the comics: Characters Charisma and Will correspond more often than not:
On the higher end: Doctor Strange, Professor X, Doc Doom, Original Green Lantern, the Phantom Stranger, the Spectre, Dark Phoenix, Raven, Superman, Darkseid, Thor, Captain America, Doc Savage, the Shadow, Reed Richards, Magneto, Red Skull, Ras Al Ghul, Batman, the Joker, Daredevil, Elektra, the Kingpin, the Spirit, Silver Surfer, the Beast, Dick Tracy, Dr. Fate, Lex Luthor, Galactus, Black Bolt, Loki, Odin, Shazam, and many more.
There are also plenty of examples where they don't. Guy Gardner, for example, being a classic high Will, low Charisma type. In general, characters that are largely mentally based, you can make arguments for *all* of those features to be high. There will certainly be a high incidence of characters with both Charisma and Will being rated highly. But they are still distinct (both can be high, but not necessarily the same) and there are still significant counter-examples. Not to mention that the list provided is hardly uncontroversial.
Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10
th, 2009 at 9:53am:
On the lower end: The Toad, Paste Pot Pete, Frankenstein's monster, early Wonder Man, Yellowjacket, Electrocutioner (from the Destroyers), early Thing, early Spider-Man, early Hawkeye and more.
Of the small percentage that buck the trend, most can be explained via V&V Weaknesses.
Again, I think your examples are debatable and hardly conclusive. There are also numerous counter-examples as well. And lastly, having two distinct characteristics that covary is hardly an argument for blending them. Your logic lends itself to the blending of Strength and Endurance, for example.
Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10
th, 2009 at 9:53am:
In the V&V rules:
-Charisma is described as 'a personal aura,' not physical attractiveness.
Right. And? That's a really old confusion that I don't see people make anymore. I don't see anyone conflating Charisma with Appearance.
Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10
th, 2009 at 9:53am:
-When you want to build a Professor X type or a Dr. Strange type or a Phoenix type, you roll for powers on the Magic/Psionics table. There are only two Heightened Stats there: Intelligence and Charisma. Yet we all agree Charles, Stephen and Jean all have monster Wills.
And thus, many folks have added a Will stat -- the above is kind of circular, dude. Of course, the game as written doesn't have a will stat. That same power list *does* contain Willpower, though, doesn't it? That's still recognized by the authors of the game as distinct.
Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10
th, 2009 at 9:53am:
-A victim of an Emotion Control must save vs. Charisma to break free. If there was a Will stat you'd use that here, you would save vs. Will.
Right. Because the argument for those that include a Will stat is that it deserves to be included, despite being missing in the original game.
Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10
th, 2009 at 9:53am:
-A target of Mind Control or Emotion Control attacks may be harder to hit if he has a higher Charisma (read Will) than the attacker.
Wouldn't Will play into psionic combat? It's already there as Charisma.
You seem to be arguing against a point nobody is making. Sure, the game as written may lump Will into Charisma. That in no way implies that there isn't a good reason to make it a distinct characteristic.
Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10
th, 2009 at 9:53am:
-Mind Control range is Int x Cha / 5. What does how rotten you are have to do with this kind of thing? Again, it makes perfect sense if you read Cha as Will.
It also makes sense if you see Charisma as your ability to exert force in a mental/social milieu, sort of a mental Strength -- Will would be more analogous to mental Endurance. At least, that's how it works in my house-rule.
Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10
th, 2009 at 9:53am:
-Cosmic Awareness chance to succeed is modified by your Charisma. Any other game system, that would be Will or Int.
Can you support this contention? And of course it makes sense to use Charisma -- you're coercing answers out of the universe.
Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10
th, 2009 at 9:53am:
-Water Breathing B: After Charisma hours out of the water, the amphibious character is fatigued. This only makes sense if Charisma is Will.
Again, you're arguing beside the point -- as I said, just because the rules as written sometimes treat Charisma as some form of Will, it doesn't mean it works well or shouldn't be house-ruled.
Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10
th, 2009 at 9:53am:
-Telepathy: Again, Int and Cha are the defining stats. Any other game it's Will and/or Int.
Dude, you persist in being circular -- it is well known that V&V as originally written doesn't have a Will stat. Continuing to point at how it isn't in the game is kind of pointless. And actually, charisma is *often* used as a defining characteristic for telepathy. It certainly is in various iterations of d20 and d20 Modern -- in the WotC psionics rules, in Steve Kenson's psychic rules. You're making circular (and incorrect) presumptions without offering support or evidence.
Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10
th, 2009 at 9:53am:
-Morale saves are affected by Reaction rolls (ie: your Charisma). Makes sense that your Will would factor into your willingness to fight on against the odds.
Right -- thus overloading and muddying the Charisma stat, which is why many use a Will stat, so that that distinct dimension of a character can be modeled distinctly.
Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10
th, 2009 at 9:53am:
Many assume that a Will stat should affect your hit points, but wouldn't it really affect your morale? It doesn't mean that they'll need another pass with the laser rifle to take out Professor X. It means that even when he's beaten to a pulp, he won't give up.
Many, many characters endure more damage and take more punishment by sheer willpower. It happens *often* in comics, so often to be a trope of the genre. Will would absolutely contribute to hit points.
Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10
th, 2009 at 9:53am:
Almost every psionic power in the game uses Charisma somehow to define its parameters.
Because the game as written only *has* Int and Charisma. What else are they going to use?
Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10
th, 2009 at 9:53am:
The idea that your Will and Charisma should rise as you gain experience makes sense. You're more combat ready, more self assured.
Any stat can increase over time if you train it. This seems to be a non-point.
Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10
th, 2009 at 9:53am:
You could change the name of Charisma to Will in V&V and be good to go.
Not really -- while you can point to a number of characters with high rankings in both, there are plenty of characters who aren't terribly charismatic who have high Wills. Lumping them together makes no sense. Most of the X-Men, for example, have exceptional Wills -- they are strong-willed and minded, partially by training and partially due to their status as outsiders. But they do not all have a high Charisma.
Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10
th, 2009 at 9:53am:
As a GM: Ends the tradition of Charisma being the dump stat!
Thoughts?
Mashing Will into Charisma isn't necessary to keep it from being a dump-stat. The way my house ruled version of the stats work is that you have two scopes: the physical and mental/social and three axes of interaction -- effect, resistance and control. Strength and Charisma are the (respectively) physical and mental/social effect-causing stats, Endurance and Will are the physical and mental/social resistance stats and Agility and Intelligence are the physical and mental/social control/adeptness stats. It works well, it allows for good modeling of existing characters, as well as good, varied ground for creating new ones. Personally, I see lots of good reasons to have Will as a distinct stat.
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Will Stat? (Read 7939 times)
