So I need to ask you all a question...

What is V&V?

By that I mean, what are the elements of the V&V system that give it its' flavour?

If someone wanted to modernize the system, what would they absolutely have to make sure remains to the game so that it is still V&V at the heart of it all?

I look forward to your responses

I think it is kind of hard to quantify, as that varies from person to person.  Dee feels that Living Legends is the successor to V&V, and it is how he wanted to shape it.  I feel that LL is clearly NOT a successor, has none of the flavor, and was overly bland.  I got rid of my copy as a toss in when I made a trade of RPGs with another person (I just gave it to them as a surprise freebie).

Power points?  Yeah, I'd say they are critical.  I also think the random generation is as well.  And personally, I feel the combat table is pretty tied in.

Power points.  That is the heart of V&V.  And it is what seperates this game from most others.

Agree with the above and would add the initiative process of counting down by phase. That's pretty uniquely V&V.

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Nothing would make me scream. I'd just keep using the same rules I have been.

I actually had the same experience Eric had with Living Legends. I wanted to like it, felt it was inferior to V&V, and got rid of it.

Was I angry about it? No.

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I'd have to say Jeff Dee's (and Bill Willingham's) art!

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To be honest, one-third the guys on this site have more house rules than you can shake a giant stick at--so I don't think you'll be offending anyone's feathers by offering up your own take on thing or asking for input.

I asked this question myself back over on the old forum - for probably the same reasons! I WANT TO SEE A REAL "THIRD EDITION"!

It did not occur to me that Power Points were so intrinsically V&V until now. The do a lot and can help equal the playing field between the Super strong and the super smart, for instance.

V&V is a high-maintenance car, that you HAVE to tune-up for each GM, each PC.

The formulas, the 15 second turn, the 4.4 calculation for converting useless inches per turn into real-world mph, all of these make the system 'feel' legitimate. There are no 'generalities' in V&V measurements, but there are in 'powers.' That's a great way of grabbing the 'comic style', that OHOTMU verisimilitude you want.

[For an example of what I mean, the OHOTMU would tell you PRECISELY how much force Cyclops optic blast had - but the explanation of how Scott Summers had this power was a bit wonky - power from an extra-spatial dimension??? WHA????(IIRC)]

But the fact is, once gameplay begins, esp. combat, detail bogs it down. So he looks great on paper, my beloved PC, but he is hard to use!

V&V also allows multiple Mega-Powers or "package deals" on a single roll. This is pretty cool but can be a terror to the unsuspecting GM.

Player: "Hey! I just rolled Animal/Plant Powers, Bionics, Ice Powers, Absorption, Armor B and Mutant Power!" Whaddaya think?!"

GM: "I think you ain't playing in my campaign...."

However, I think that making ALL powers/abilities a la carte choices would be a mistake.

I think Random Creation is essential (with modification to fit the PC as the rules suggest). Far too often we can get in a rut as creatives. Random Generation is often inspirational.

Lastly, I think V&V should have Hit Points. It seems obvious, but other systems don't use them and I can see that, but V&V is  - well -  "D&D with superpowers" - and an old dog like me enjoys that.

Oh - on the same note: HP modifiers are DEFINITELY "V&V" to me!


peace
justice

You know, if I had to pick ONE thing that made V&V unique (and this will kind of be multiple things piled into one, and a combination of some things said already), I think I would go with:

- The freedom and ability to make a character you want based on random rolls.

One of my friends/players is a big fan of Champions.  What is ironic (and he has mentioned this a few times) is that I'm much more of a detail-oriented, anal retentive, specifics, 'crunchy' kind of person.

He is not; he's much more open-ended, loose, less-detailed, and not as into crunching numbers.

For some strange reasons, even though Champions seems like it would be a better fit for me (and V&V for him) we were drawn to the opposites.

And analyzing that leads me to realize that one of V&V's big strengths (and thing that gives it it's unique flavor) is the way you can pick a chart (like Magic/Psionic Items, or Skills, or whatever) and you can then fine-tune that character (with many open-ended powers) to get what you're looking for.

That's not to say that the things like Power score, Hit Point modifiers, and so many other great things make it unique and special.  Just that this feature - the ability to use a random chart that will inspire and lead into making a unique and creative character - is what I think is the most special thing about the game.

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Ditto. Just about everyone I know rolls there eyes when a character in comics suddenly gets a brand new ability out of the blue. Jack Herman and Jeff Dee were wise for discouraging that element in the game instead of adding it into the rules. When I audition new players, anyone who has that munchkiny "when do I get to buy new powers" attitude doesn't join the game. This isn't kindergarten, folks.

Well the way I was seeing it is that Basic Hits could be would levels, or the number of which you have.  For each one you lose, you take a cumulative -1 penalty.

How does that compare to the normal amount of hit points a character has?

Is it more, less or roughly the same?

Okay, apologies for blatantly ripping off someone else's words (eclecticscholar from the Yahoo group), but I thought this summary (which I discovered tonight as I was cleaning up old emails) summed up perfectly what makes V&V unique.

This was originally written in February of 2008 and before I deleted it I thought I would post it here for all here to appreciate (hopefully the original author won't mind).  Keep in mind this was in the midst of a discussion about "mythic" and the differences between V&V and M&M.

Also, though this comes from a heated debate about V&V and M&M, I'm really not trying to relay the author's comments about M&M here.  Others on the list chimed in saying that the opinions expressed about M&M's "unflexibility" are untrue, and - as I've never played it - I don't mean to pass along anything untrue.  I keep the entire post intact so that you can see the whole thing in context (and it will make more sense, hopefully).  Rather than focusing on any unflexibility on M&M's part, I wanted to focus on how much creativity and flexibility V&V has:

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In comic books and in V&V both, most shapeshifters can
assume any form, even forms they had never considered
or encountered until that moment.

In M&M, a shapeshifter can never improvise. The
ability to change size, or to include plasticity, etc.
must be all be arranged and purchased from the very
start.

In comic books and in V&V both, most speedsters can
improvise a large number of superspeed tricks.

In M&M, again, a speedster can only do what was
purchased from the very start. No improvisation. No
organic flow.

This facility for improvisation and for fluidity of
powers is what makes V&V mythic.

Because in modern mythic tales, whether space opera or
fantasy or superhero, heroes are able to improvise
beyond their strict by-the-numbers abilities to
accomplish more when the moment is right.

Because in modern mythic tales, what matters is
creativity and energy, not strict adherence to a
pre-set and unchanging set of statistics.

V&V provides that improvisational breadth and has
built into its rules those openings for creativity and
energy.

M&M lacks such fluidity and openness to improvisation.
Because of M&M's inherited D20 crunchiness, an M&M
hero is incapable of going significantly beyond what
has been pre-set from the start. In any M&M game run
by the M&M rules, strict by-the-numbers adherence is
the rule of the day.

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You come out with slightly more hit points because of the rounding up.  In the example I gave, the character ends up with 16 hit points.  The actual character had 14 hit points (3.456 * 4 = 13.824 ^ 14).

That was a bone of contention.  You want it to be significant enough that it is a penalty, without crippling the character.  A straight -1 doesn't end up meaning a lot in the long run to a power blaster, but to a melee fighter, it would be crippling.

I never figured out what would be a suitable penalty.  I did consider just increasing PR costs (maybe double, triple, etc) with each level.

...let me say something about it.

I think that when people try to make point buy systems for V&V they are killing the most creative and fun part of the game.  Trying to make sense of your powers.

I often wondered if they rolled the villains from the Most Wanted books and then came up with concepts for them.

Certainly there needs to be house rules to smooth out the rough spots, but in the end if you want point buy, M&M or Champions pretty much have it covered quite well.

V&V is a different flavour and a darn good one at that.

So what are your favorite parts of the V&V rules?