Ranger wrote on Aug 28^th, 2012 at 1:18am:


LOL.  There is a lot of ...debate and some 'somewhat' justified frustration and anger about how this power can be used and potentially abused.

As there is no 'official' errata or addenda to what the power can do you could consider this...

1) Not all technologies will necessarily be powered by electricity.  True almost ALL modern terrestrial tech IS powered and driven by electricity but there are fiber optical alternatives, chemical reaction, or megnetic driven tech in the pseudo-reality of comic physics where alien tech, other dimensional devices that use different physics, or magic could potentially power a device.
2) As presented with the power, No. There is no reason a enterprising character could not do just as you described above.  There is no "official" - 'Cyber-Telepathy' or 'Computer-Control' power that would be used instead of Lightning Control to control every computer, device, electronic data {internet or otherwise} on a electronic powered device withing range of the power user.  Magnetic data or Optical data 'of course', would not be subject to Lightning Control {cassette tapes, CD's}.

Now on to your questions and some hopefully helpful suggestions...

F.I.S.T. -
1) Yes, technically F.I.S.T.s armor could be taken control of but it is certainly a 'unfamiliar device'.

As per the write-up of Lightning control...
"Because of his ability to control electricity, the character may attempt to take control of or short-out electrical and electronic circuitry.  This requires a successful special hint on the device, plus the following:
"To Take control: PR=4 per attempt. Save vs. Intelligence on 1d20 to gain control, plus save vs Agility o 1d20 to avoid mishap every time an attempt is made to make the device do something (this can be ignored if the character becomes skilled in controlling that particular device).  Range of control= 2xE, and each use of the controlled device may cost movement or an action (GM's Option)"

- The character would have to keep trying to control the powered armor as the wearer would likely continue issuing the device different orders from the Lightning Controller.  This will get expensive in PR real fast.
- The device weilder need only get out of range as the Lightning controller must use a movement 'minimum' or a action to keep contesting to attempt to control a device.  Unless the powered armor is too heavy {'a RP' thing as there is no weight to battlesuits - their weight is assumed into the characters total weight} moving out of range could end all attempts to control the powered suit.
- The Agility save to avoid mishap could just as likely be a temporary power boost to the suit's abilities or weapon damage from a failed mishap roll.  The mishap is a mishap for the lightning Controller... not necessarily the possessor of the device.

2 & 3) Technically yes. You could consider each and every function of the powered armor its own separate device that would require a Lightning Control attempt.  I would consider grouping things into subsystems to make the power not completely useless...movement systems, sensors systems weapons systems...etc..

4) Perhaps the most limiting of the options available to the Lightning Controller he could just paralyze the armor...but again it would be constantly opposed by the wearer issuing other commands to the power armor.
Turning the armor off is possible and yes that would end his control but he could just turn it back on just as easily with lightning control. 
As the Devil's advocate, F.I.S.T. could remove his suits power pack and it would end all easy control of his suit as the Lightning Controller would have to be extremely familiar with his suit to power an unpowered device to opperate it as he does not know the exact circuitry of the device and has no ambient electrical flow to manipulate and must provide the power himself.  A Creative GM could make all sorts of mishaps in this case or just plain control roll penalties due to unfamiliarity.  If F.I.S.T. made his armor and was familiar with the discrete individual devices within the suit he could use the component devices as if separate gadgets with charges.
- Also, Lightning control allows the character to control a device... it does not give instant knowledge of all that a device CAN do.

Mocker-
I think your option to mind control the device at a increased amount of cost in PR would be appropriate.  Also keep in mind the restrictions and limits of Lightning Control I mentioned above.  Just because the Lightning control can control a device or yes even temporarily the actions of a android it does not give instant understanding of every function the device is capable of performing - without time and familiarity of course.
2) Remember a Lightning Control can control a electronic device, but its little more than a remote control... meaning the Lightning Controller cannot make a device do something it was not designed or capable of doing in normal use.  This is very important to remember!

Hornet-
A simple way of handling this is to simply say hornets eyes are powered by his own natural neural electricity or body heat.  Organic power sources are not electronic devices and as such not subject to this power.  Though the lightning controller could shut the eyes off the owner of the eyes would just turn them back on... at best temporary blindness round to round contested would be what it would gain him.  Though something much more subtle and difficult for Hornet to realize would be the ability to implant false images to his eyes that are electronic devices the eyes do not 'see' light but they do convert optical patterned to electronic data that is transmitted to Hornet's brain... that could be manipulated.  Or course the Lightning controller would have to know that Hornet's eyes are artificial and the eyes would NEVER be familiar devices.

I have pondered all these things as I have a Magnetic and Lightning controller - Thunderbolt and yes it is a VERY powerful combination... one I did not realize exactly how powerful until I got him into play.

To note I do not have ANY other source of information or data on V&V other than my single Revised Edition Rule book.  I do not have F.I.S.T., Mocker or Hornet to look at personally to read their history or understand the origin of their powers to consider how Lightning Control would or could interact with those specific characters.

I would prepose that you should closely consider the character's origin as I doubt Lightning Control would work the exact same way every time with every character with electronic devices... but the above is a good rule of thumb to remember.

I hope this helps a little.

Regardless the 'source' of the fuel or base reaction, all those devices use electric current to transact their operation along their circuits, so, yes all those examples, imo, are valid.
However, a savvy GM would likely present barriers to accomplish these types of (abuse-ripe) feats with various degrees of difficulty. As Thunderbolt pointed out (very well), it is a powerful thing and the GM should define non-control scenarios to mitigate the use/abuse of the power. Due to the limits of certain machines functions, the best effort may only produce paralysis, malfunction or shutdown in most cases.

Its an interesting scenario. A character in the upcoming scenario Final Fight with the Furies has Cyberpathy, which may give GMs a good way to define the use of the power.

Also something to remember, all those uses of Lightning control to take over a device are possible only if they are NOT currently being monitored.  Someone watching or using the device at that same time would definitely oppose any direct control of such a device and... the Lightning Control has a limited range in which it can be applied.  Certainly not a world-wide reach... and taxing in PR to keep doing wiley-nilly.  Its not 'free'.

Yes wireless devices are just as vulnerable... though not moreso than any other device as the Lightning Control power is already a 'wireless Remote control' power.

Yes, this does make bank accounts and electronic data very vulnerable to manipulation ... unless someone is currently accessing that data and realizes erroneous changes or manipulation is going on... it would then be opposed.

A wiley GM could have military installations of high security monitored by AI's or even just mundane computer security system specialists 'on-watch' actively looking for such intrusions.

In addition something I thought of but didn't include before... a failed Agility check to avoid mishap... could indeed be a feedback surge that could inflict damage upon the Lightning Controller!

Consider the possibility of psycho-somatic shock if the Lightning Controller - manipulating data on a machine "with his mind", effectively, when that machine is destroyed, lightning surged or EMPe'd?  Feedback damage could theoretically be possible.

Think also on computer viruses... could the Lightning Controller manipulating data with his mind 'catch a virus'? 

Possibly.  Its effects could be as mild as temporary dyslexia, to major distracting migraine headaches and delirium to as serious a severe neurological trauma that inflicts damage and must be recovered from with bed-rest... the equivalent of a neurological/electronic flu...

The consequences of abuse of this power are limitless as the GM's creativity!

Ranger, I sent you a PM.

Thunderbolt brought up the issue of complexity, too.  You can't simply take over armor/bionics/androids/robots (basically anything on the devices table) without skill or experimentation.  I don't think extra protection would be necessary against an average character with Lightning Control.

I also don't think of upgrading armor to protect against it as a wasted invention.  Added Lightning Control as a defense to armor will protect it from more than just Lightning Control.  There's also protection against Chemical Power, HTH, & Magnetic Powers.

I don't think an extra power is strictly necessary.  I think training in Lightning Control covers it.

I don't really think the "up-to-date" thing is as valid as people are makingit it out to be.  The revised V&V rules were designed in the 80's.  Lightning Control is described as having the ability to control devices.  So it's not like they weren't thinking of it back then.

In Secret Wars 1, Magneto was picking electric locks, and I wouldn't be surprised if controlling high tech electronics was occuring at least since then.  Sure, it didn't happen as often.  But I would think that's more of a quantitative measurement (not as many electronic devices) as opposed to a qualitative measurement.

There was also a Spider-man villain who had the Noncorporeal power and he could reprogram a computer by reaching into it. I forget his name...

Also, if you're trying to simplify things, I don't really think adding a new power is going to accomplish that.  Training in control of devices is about as simple as it gets.

EDIT: Maximum Overdrive came out in the 80's.  And it's not comics. 

I'm sorry, too...  I can be pretty goofy in expressing myself!?

Hyuck?

Ok, AK called me and we talked about this.  I think I understand the Cyberpathy application better.  I think of Cyberpathy as more of a "reprogramming" thing while Lightning Control only allows you to perform the tasks you could normally do by touching it.

For instance, Lightning Control would let you control a computer remotely.  You could do anything that touching it would allow you to do (type on the keyboard, click the mouse, etc).  Cyberpathy would you let go in and hack it or reprogram Windows or whatever (ie: basically the stuff you WANT to do).

With phones: Lightning Control would allow you to use the phone (dial numbers, pull the contact list up on the screen, etc).  Cyberpathy would allow you to trace calls, unlock the password so you can change settings, etc (ie: the stuff you WANT to do again).

...and etc.

So using Lightning Control on Armor B would be enough to stop the villain temporarily (paralysis, turn off, etc).  Cyberpathy would give the player something akin to Mind Control (fight against the controller's enemies).  Same with Android Body, Bionics, etc.  or anything on the device table.

I love the complexity of the discussion you two are having. This in itself shows the potential for mis-use or at least the fact it can kill certain storylines a GM might enjoy exploring if he doesn't keep a handle on the variety of things this power could be interpreted as being capable of.

Bad guy has a sixty foot tall super robot to wreck the downtown as a mysterious storm approach the city. Johnny Thunder Lips gives the giant mechanical man a smooch and turns off the "device". Exaggerated for effect

See, now this is what's causing confusion for me, AK:
AlabasterKnight wrote on Aug 28^th, 2012 at 10:21am:


AlabasterKnight wrote on Aug 29^th, 2012 at 2:02pm:


First it's "yes, this works", and then it's "no, because my new power 'cyberpathy' is what you'd use instead".   

Of course you will. The GM is always the final arbiter of what is and isn't possible within the confines of a campaign. It's (imo) the excellent debates, such as here, and rational and valid difference of opinions that make V&V so different than games like Champions, where most everything is spelled out and point costed.

As a GM, (and having played an uber-character with this power) I would explain to my player that I reserved the right to determine the difference between what qualifies as a "Device" and what I would designate as a "System". It might be rules-lawyer-ish, but I think it - after listening to this very good discussion between DN and AK is the way I will go.

Using the example of FIST from earlier for instance, I would specify that each device within the Armor needed a special roll to control. So Johnny T Lips could control FIST jetboots, but not the life support, or vis-a-versa. Now here's where it gets a little trickier. The rulebook doesn't state one way or the other, but if the character had just a power or two, then I'd allow for additional control rolls for the other systems. It would take some time but eventually he could control the whole suit of armor. If the character had a plethora of powers then he would only be allowed the single device to control at a time.

Big thumbs up to DN and AK for knocking this around. It's helped how I view the power from the GM's side of things.

(I have a character with this power in my AoA campaign and this thread has been very helpful.)

Thunderbolt wrote on Aug 29^th, 2012 at 3:59pm:


This is actually a legit POV to me too (especially the quote as written), but even the human body runs on electricity between neurons and we would be hard pressed to argue the open end of what constitutes a circuit pathway and when it infringes on Mind Control right?

Ranger - your example of system versus device is spot on and exactly the view I'm thinking. As device gives way to system, so too do the effects of control become basic where Electric Control can 'control' a device to complex where now we'd be talking Cyberpathy or Telemechanics variants of Psionics for 'control with intent'.

This is the difference between cause involuntary function of a basic machine and on to puppeteering a complex machine that has parts that move and does not require electricity for those functions, but since it has a computer chip in the dashboard....

At the end of the day Thunderbolt wins with GM's discretion.

I'm making sure I save every bit of this thread.  I've got a player with Lightning control and this is going to come in soooo handy when he tries to do stuff.

Thunderbolt wrote on Aug 30^th, 2012 at 2:46am:

I meant that your statement about the GM having the discretion was the real 'buck stops here' sort of statement.

Quote:

I don't see it this way: I think he could overtake the servos and cause them to randomly activate or deactive, but not direct their motions as that happens in the sphere of pintpoint control.
I know I seem to be splitting hairs here, but 'servos' are likely also a system based on possible (possibly micro) pneumatic or hydraulic interfaces and to me would also likely be controlled by some sort of neurological integration controlled by a complex array/computer in the helmet....

To me, if a GM wants to allows fine control, it's up to them, but I don't see (personally) the need to allow more level of control than interference from 'Lightning Control'.

I think we're on the same page though. 

Thunderbolt wrote on Aug 30^th, 2012 at 4:47pm:


Agreed!

GUYVER!!!!