Hmmm... Very interesting!

Have you had any chance to play test this with characters that could potentially combine powers like an electrified body  {from lighting control} and say a Haymaker?

Just curious!

The tough part of looking at this list is the exact thing you said about the mechanics and interpretations of them...
This is strictly opinion and I wouldn't tell anyone they have to run anything as suggested below; I understand you'll do as you do, no badmouth on that from here, but you asked for critique:

1) Bearhug: If a victim/character is considered grabbed, then the grabber should be able to exert full strength anyway. What is the mechanic I would worry about here is how much can the victim mitigate through opposed STR and if the grabbed is stronger than it doesn't matter because the next move is an escape attempt anyway (again opposed STR).

2) Bullrush: Whenever I see this mentioned, I always think of the last conversation Majestic and I had about 'passing' strike maneuvers and velocity damage and hit modifiers. 

3) Cheapshot: Any surprise attack is a 'cheap' shot imo. The mechanic this brings to mind is the difference again for the victim between active defenses and passive defenses. If Sneaky Pete launches a Brooklyn hook at unsuspecting IronHulk who is in his iron form, a cheap shot might be moot...

4) Coup De Grace: Interestingly this one seemed to beg a lot less drag out of me. This shouldn't be a 'maneuver' as much as a role playing moment. If your players are heroes the decision to take a life when all the other players know it's possible, plausible and unopposed speaks volumes to the group about the 'character' of the hero...

5) Blind: This is one of the most sensible ideas imo; but it's effect is going to be based on materials and applicability, so it too is more a role-playing moment to buy time or advantage and shouldn't really be hard coded to any numbers game.

6) Disarm: Opposed STR/damage versus victim STR again... attacker should have to make a called shot with a minus to hit for range, surprise and specific location at least. The % for success the way you've written it takes too much control of the situation away from the victim.

7) Taunt: Emotion Control without actually having the power I believe would become attacker's Charisma versus a victim's Intelligence. Maybe a modifier for factors for victims' possible frustration with successive taunts, otherwise if the victim saves versus the taunt, he or she blows off the insult/goad/taunt...

8 & 9) Flurry & Haymaker: so we're going to offer players more damage for expenditure of PR... not a fan of these kinds of modifiers. I might rule that 1 extra PR on a normal HTH attack allows only the upper echelon of damage available. The extra Oomph for a 1d6 for example allows the hero to score only 4, 5, or 6 on his roll for damage unmodified. Something like that, but truly a character shouldn't be allow to become more than their write-up in exchage for PR.
And I see where you're going with haymakers, but usually a haymaker is just a punch that has time to land properly and usually exposes its maker to being in a bit less of a defensive posture. And it's not that the punch is anything more than the maker is capable of, it just usually lands in a place that hurts like the nose, under the chin, solar plexus, the groin (haymaker kick)... if it went this way, you wouldn't have to limit the attempt to once per session

10) Headbutt: Knockout is increased to 3x for who? The attacker? There is no inherent advantage using a headbutt in this regard; it's not more devastating to get headbutted unless the person is also charging. And then only NFL guys ever seem to do this and they have head gear and still suffer concussions.
Headbutt is also something I would require a character to have Natural Weaponry (Some sort of HTH fighting style) to use properly, the half damage should only be applied to someone untrained.

11) Sweep: This is an attack that does knockdown and should be ruled on as if its an attack doing knockback, the intent being to bring an opponent off their balance or footing. Now if this is being used against a trained HTH combatant, then would they get an opposed check?

12, 13 & 14) Power Strike, Precise, Defensive Strike: See Haymaker.

15 & 16) Cut throat & Heavy Bleeding: see Cheap Shot. The concept of bleeding is already covered in the rules mechanics. Normal people who are damaged by blades, clubs, bullets and bombs already bleed out pretty quick. Having a special maneuver or explanation seems kinda redundant.

I totally understand wanting to make the game more exciting though, I just don't think this list does that anymore than the normal game mechanics.

I don't remember a bleeding mechanic either.

Did someone say magazine articles?  Magazine articles related to V&V can be found here:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/vnvrpg/files/

Why would it be three attack rolls?  One to grab, then an opposed strength test to hod on to him and then an attack roll to throw him... assuming you have the strength to lift and throw him?

I'm new to this game system so forgive my ignorance if I'm missing something... obvious.

Display Name has it right, though I concede that this is something that we've articulated in our own homebrew rules, rather than being from the rules themselves.

Display Name, do we have the full rules for "Villains and Variants" now in the magazine collection (I can't access it right now, for some reason)?  I'm buddies with the author, John Polojac, and might be able to score you a full copy, if we haven't added that yet.

1) I think you misunderstand. The Bear Hug move would be instead of a standard grab. The Bear Hug is harder to perform, however it gives you half the damage initially (instead of just a grab, which would be a special attack and no damage). Even if the victim is stronger, that doesn't necessarily mean he won't be hurt by the squeeze, imo. Nor will he guarantee the breakout just by being stronger.

2) Okay?

3) Obviously depending on situation it might be moot point. However, it is a good general rule.

4) This is mainly to force the PC's to think twice/use tactics when there is a hostage situation, making rescues tougher.

5) Again, a general rule. It would change based on situation, what is used to blind, etc.

6) I agree. I'll re work this one.

7) That looks pretty good.

8-9) We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I think pushing yourself is a cool mechanic, and a hard decision (not a no brainer) especially for long combats.

10) Maybe the half damage to someone untrained sounds good. I didn't think of a different positive end besides an increased knock out percentage but wanted to add the maneuver. Maybe a high chance to break a nose?

11) I like the idea of it being based on knockback (i.e. Basic Hits counting, as it WOULD be harder to knock down a super large foe).

15-16) I wanted to make it harsher for not just a bleeding wound, but a throat cut. Also gives a little bonus to those who have high detect danger (or train in it), as no one would want to get snuck up on with the ability to get your throat cut!!

Thanks for all the feedback, I do appreciate it. Anyone else?

AlabasterKnight wrote on Sep 21^st, 2012 at 8:29pm:


...is a bit different from:

AlabasterKnight wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2012 at 7:22pm:


Let me ask it to you more directly:
Is there a specific mechanic that allows a villain to say "Your friend is dying.  You can either capture me or rescue him/her!"

Bleeding out usually means taking additional damage after a wound(s) is inflicted.

Majestic wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2012 at 12:52am:


Ah yes, the one written by Greycrusader from the MHG forum. Although it covers an interpretation of lethality, it isn't too much more straight forward than section 3.4 already is. The need for that lethality still doesn't account for bleeding out, does it?
Maybe Greycrusader should come over here and discuss it a bit/shed some light on his thoughts then and now... that'd be pretty cool

AlabasterKnight wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2012 at 10:00pm:

If the default house rule is that characters bleed, than bleeding wouldn't require a special weakness. Rather, not bleeding would be a special power.

AlabasterKnight wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2012 at 10:29pm:


Well, remember that - per the rules (p. 44) - a person only does half damage when bending/pushing/pulling, at least towards inanimate objects.  It would certainly be reasonable (by that logic) that a person who is successfully held (by an attacker) would only do half damage.

But then V&V doesn't really give us an "opposed roll" mechanic as you seem to imply, AK, though I imagine most people have their own house rules for such a thing (which I'm totally cool with).

Curiously - and regarding the "pushing oneself" concept (a rule I'm not crazy about myself) - one thing that Jeff and Jack seem to have used  (as their own house rule) is the ability of any character to simply do a "double-shot".  In other words, when my character with Power Blast wants to do a double-shot, they can spend double Power and do a 2d20 Power Blast (all with a single action, and at a single target).  Personally, I don't find that very fair, since Power Blast is so much cheaper than, say, Lightning or Magnetics or so many other powers, so doubling Power Blast lets you get that 2d20 for only 2 Power, where doubling a Magnetic Blast would cost you 10.  Then of course there's the whole issue of power creep...

Majestic wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2012 at 4:48am:


I agree, but as an aspect of realism, not just typed damaged for its own sake.

This whole thread is about opinion; I just believe that the GM can have a limited set of practices behind the shield to introduce this realism without altering the offering of mechanics to players to further complicate balance issue the GM already is responsible for in this game. I suppose that's a style issue. I think there's a lot more GM control inherently in V&V and most other games give way too much mechanic to the players to meta game with. (all IMO_ I am a storyteller GM and not a 'simulationist'...)

---
On another note... blah blah? really?

Display Name: Is there a specific mechanic that allows a villain to say "Your friend is dying.  You can either capture me or rescue him/her!"

AK: Yes. It's called player makes a choice, GM rules accordingly. In that situation the player shouldn't have a game metric to measure whether they have time to make the choice. It's lame and a cop out that relieves the tension of having to play the moment.
This what roleplaying is for in the RPG. The GM is going to determine whether the player has the initiative, skill, power, and plan to pull it off and the player is going to roll his or her dice and role-play the scenario, right? 

AlabasterKnight wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2012 at 10:29pm:


I think a wrap around would be harder than say, the hulk snatching someone up by the foot. You could do a normal grab with one hand, as opposed to the bear hug (an obvious two). Which would reflect the -2 to hit. Adding another mechanic for someone who is strong to negate damage will just make combat run even slower. I don't feel its necessary.


There's a mechanic? For my formula I invented? This is news to me. Seeing as how you missed it, I'll re share: "Knockback is calculated using the formula DMG - Basic Hits instead of Hit point Damage - Basic Hits."

4) As a player, I'd much rather know what I was up against, instead of it just being "the almighty GM's call." Number/rules help the GM when he is overwhelmed with other crap.

Pushing yourself absolutely DOES make you more than you are. Have you never been to the gym, sir? That's the mechanic behind it. There is a plot line in Teen Titans where Cyborg goes through depression because, after his cybernetics were implanted, he actually had limitations. You can always push yourself beyond your ability.

The reason for these mechanics isnt to bog the game down, it's to give players the ability to do their own thing, and have every combat a little different. When characters have only one attack form, combat can get boring pretty quickly.

Ever done one of these? In the words of Paul Blart; "Nobody wins with the headbutt." Although it helps a lot if you hit your opponent right at the bridge of the nose, it mostly backfires when you miss your strike, or go skull to skull.

How is the bear hug a limit? It's giving a "higher risk = higher damage" option for grabs. And it's purely opinion that I shouldn't introduce higher damage. Some groups have PC's with 100+ is most stats. Some play low powered. Most, to my knowledge, are mid level. I don't mind throwing a tiny bit more damage in order for PC's to get more fun and versatility out of combat.

I appreciate the input. Actually, believe it or not AK, you've helped immensely. You're showing me that 80% of the problems that might come up with these, are stuff I can deal with. And the other 20% will be tweaked and modified.

Anyone else?

Hey guys here are Dsummers critical hit/injury rules... what do you think?

3.6b Critical Hits
        Some hits cause damage so sever that the wound continues to bleed. When ever a hit point is lost by a character there is  a chance that the wound can be critical.  Critical hits can not be healed by normal means.  Critical hits must be tended to by a doctor.   A wound is critical if the knockout roll is 01-05 AND the roll is not over the amount of damage taken by that attack in hits.   For example,  Bob takes 3 points of damage from his hits.  The knockout rolls is 04.  While it is within that range,  Bob only took 3 damage so the wound is not critical.
           Ok, now these things modify the critical hits.

Punches: Normal.  01-05
Blunt Weapons:     01-10
Sharp Weapons:     01-15
Guns:                      01-20
Explosions:              01-25
Energy:                   01-15


Now the body part also modifies the critical hits.

Body Shot: normal
Arm, leg:   normal
Head, Heart:  x4
Groin:            x3

So if a gun is used an a called shot to the head is made, then  the wound is critical if the knockout rolls is between 01-80!

   To heal from a critical hit, surgery is required.  Getting surgery causes 2d8 damage to the patient, which they, of course, can not roll with.  This damage is modified by the surgeon's skill.   You take the damage modifier of the surgeon and subtract it from the 2d8 damage of the procedure.

  Also the surgeon needs to roll Id20  ( I is his intelligence score) to see if he is successful.  It is not successful, then the damage is taken but no positive results are gained.   It needs to be done again, and with more risk, as the patient has less hits!


After each surgery the patient rolls Ed20.  If he fails the roll he permanently loses a point of Endurance.    This simulates wear and tear.   Its best to avoid injuries after all.

  And then,  don't forget to roll to see if the damage taken from the surgery is critical!      If it is, treat this as complications from the surgery.


...Perhaps some variation on this might be useful to consider for some of the damage effects your going for?

Also, I was pondering this the Bleeding rules... of which there are not any really, you could say that anytime a hero/villain/npc takes a number of damage in hit points or power points {from rolling with blow} equal to their Endurance in one singular attack... there is a chance of a 'Bleeding Wound' being inflicted.  The change is say... 100% - the Victim's Endurance in % {say a 16 endurance yields a 84% change of inflicting a Bleeding wound} rolled on a d100.  From that point on a victim looses 1 power point or maybe 1 point of endurance every number of rounds equal to the victim's endurance {yes this speeds up if the victim loosed endurance points from bleeding} until it is medically treated, bound, staunched or the victim dies.  The victim may not even realize they are bleeding ... it could be internal hemorrhaging. 

{ Poor Roy Folker! }

This is just off the top of my head and will likely have to be modified or overuled its just a thought... what do you think?

I like the idea for a critical hit. It sounds very interesting.

Anyone else?

I think the GM should kill 'em all and let the dice sort 'em out!

Nemo_the_Clown wrote on Sep 26^th, 2012 at 5:03pm:


No, you're just putting yourself through the immense strain of reaching your peak right then and there. You didn't suddenly grow the ability to add 50% to your lift capacity in the gym by pushing yourself, you just reached into your gut and found your true limit that you were capable of the whole time. Same thing I was trying to tell you: Pushing yourself with some extra PR (representing the pain) you would eliminate the less-than-optimal results:
I have 1d8 HTH damage plus whatever other modifiers, we'll say +2. If I push myself (spend the xtra PR) I will ensure the focus that my potential could be reached in that moment (GM says my exertion is clean and he'll let me only roll 7s or 8s for that phase). It hurt, it's not a random less than focused result, and represents your exertion in game terms.

Over time with the right regimen (IE the gym), your Strength, Agility and Endurance attributes could increase (Training at the next XP level!) and now your capacities change permanently until you repeat the cycle.

But again tomayto/tomotto

Nemo_the_Clown wrote on Sep 26^th, 2012 at 5:03pm:

This
Quote:

is an oxymoron...

I believe we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Playtesting day 1: Sweep was used I believe twice, once successful, the other he missed with (so 1/1 on the %, and he only hit for 5 points, pretty cool IMO).
Cheapshot was ALMOST used at one point.
Headbutt was used once by Armstrong (our tank, guy with size change). He had no problem taking the damage, although he becomes a nervous wreck every time he needs to make a roll for unconsciousness. He ended up KOing the villain with the headbutt.
One hero really liked using Disarm (used it 3 times, hit every time, and it worked 2/3 times).

Power Shot and Precise Shot were used numerous times, by several players.

They all really like them so far.