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Imaginos
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Re: Hi everyone, I'm Jack Herman
Reply #70 - Oct 6th, 2010 at 2:48am
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My recommendation is to enjoy both sides of the fence until everything is resolved.  I still plan to purchase Giant # 1 (just haven't done so yet, more because I've been buying other things - RE Pathfinder & Star Wars Saga).  But I intend to do so before losing the chance to.

I filled out the missing pieces in my V&V collection with FGU a year or two ago.  They still have books in new condition.

Personally, I wish everything would move along, and if whoever planned it, a 3rd edition of V&V could be released with some of the changes many of us would like to see.  But that's going to be a while, no matter which side wins.

Like I said, don't be afraid to enjoy both sides while you have the opportunity to do so.
  
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Re: Hi everyone, I'm Jack Herman
Reply #71 - Oct 6th, 2010 at 9:19am
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I can tell you with absolute confidence Imaginos that you won't lose your opportunity to purchase Giant #1 and a rules upgrade is in the planning for 2011 as well as other game edifying materials...
  

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Re: Hi everyone, I'm Jack Herman
Reply #72 - Oct 6th, 2010 at 10:51am
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AlabasterKnight wrote on Oct 6th, 2010 at 9:19am:
I can tell you with absolute confidence Imaginos that you won't lose your opportunity to purchase Giant #1 and a rules upgrade is in the planning for 2011 as well as other game edifying materials...


I am hoping the rules upgrade do not include anything like building points. It should be something that expands upon the existing rules instead of making them obsolete. Expanding on the magical or psionic powers for example, would be nice. A skill system that can be "tacked" on, and so on.
  
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Re: Hi everyone, I'm Jack Herman
Reply #73 - Oct 6th, 2010 at 11:35am
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Exactly... any rules supplement is going to be generated from the subject matter experts amongst the fanbase's experience...
There's been 25 years + of home tweaking that are mostly viable upgrades that have been tried and true.
FGU has already touched base on this possibility with a few writers about how to do this potential project, but again, it's cart before the horse to think about it too much right now.
We're focusing on building the product catalog to a modern state, adding game support, and then revision can come later.
I promise this: No hero/character/point build system... it's counter to the open judgment that GMs have right now in creating a discretionary point of being arbiter of their universe. Points means flat structure and boolean or mean values that can't be negotiated...
Sounds crappy to me...?
  

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Re: Hi everyone, I'm Jack Herman
Reply #74 - Oct 6th, 2010 at 8:11pm
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I agree about no points based system. I played Champions, and I would not want V&V to become like it.
« Last Edit: Oct 6th, 2010 at 8:12pm by Hawk »  
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Reply #75 - Oct 6th, 2010 at 11:19pm
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One of my favorite concepts that pushes toward a more organized character creation was the Assymmetry rules by Brian Rogers.  Characters were defined by an overall power level, which determined how many power "facets" they receive.  I highly recommend checking out the website (which I cannot link to because it is blocked from my work).
  
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Re: Hi everyone, I'm Jack Herman
Reply #76 - Oct 7th, 2010 at 4:57am
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Imaginos wrote on Oct 6th, 2010 at 2:48am:
Personally, I wish everything would move along, and if whoever planned it, a 3rd edition of V&V could be released with some of the changes many of us would like to see. 


I don't know about a 3rd edition, but may be some rules upgrades as AK suggests FGU are looking into (and so could MHG - double the options, and I guess each version would head in differing directions) would be what I prefer. Stuff that 'bolts on' rather than wholesale re-writing.
  
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Re: Hi everyone, I'm Jack Herman
Reply #77 - Oct 7th, 2010 at 8:58am
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AlabasterKnight wrote on Oct 6th, 2010 at 11:35am:
Exactly... any rules supplement is going to be generated from the subject matter experts amongst the fanbase's experience...
There's been 25 years + of home tweaking that are mostly viable upgrades that have been tried and true.
FGU has already touched base on this possibility with a few writers about how to do this potential project, but again, it's cart before the horse to think about it too much right now.
We're focusing on building the product catalog to a modern state, adding game support, and then revision can come later.
I promise this: No hero/character/point build system... it's counter to the open judgment that GMs have right now in creating a discretionary point of being arbiter of their universe. Points means flat structure and boolean or mean values that can't be negotiated...
Sounds crappy to me...?


I was talking to DSumner on the phone the other night about much the same thing. In truth, I'm extremely happy with the system and am totally on board with Galaxy Boy's desire to keep the classic random set up versus a point build system. In truth, the one thing that I would like to see added as far as a rules set is a better focus on handling things that would normally be considered a skill check... hacking alien computers, flying strange aircraft, etc. etc. However, rather than implementing a cap system that could require a modification addition to all pre-existing characters, I've pondered about basically utilizing a clever analysis of pre-existing information about characters and incorporating that with typical skill saves. Basically looking at their primary ability scores and then adding circumstancial roll modifiers based on things such as their listed occupations (as computer programmers would naturally get a set bonus to doing computer related skill checks, mechanics would get a bonus towards rigging and repairing such equipment, counselors would get a bonus to diplomacy checks, etc.) and then also perhaps the type of environment the character was raised in, their back story, etc.
Basically you would have a simple tier of bonuses/penalties (-2,-4,-6 or +2,+4,+6 perhaps) and a broad list of guidelines on how to make it work.

I don't know, something I'm just playing around with.

  

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Re: Hi everyone, I'm Jack Herman
Reply #78 - Oct 7th, 2010 at 9:17am
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davew wrote on Oct 7th, 2010 at 8:58am:
I was talking to DSumner on the phone the other night about much the same thing. In truth, I'm extremely happy with the system and am totally on board with Galaxy Boy's desire to keep the classic random set up versus a point build system. In truth, the one thing that I would like to see added as far as a rules set is a better focus on handling things that would normally be considered a skill check... hacking alien computers, flying strange aircraft, etc. etc. However, rather than implementing a cap system that could require a modification addition to all pre-existing characters, I've pondered about basically utilizing a clever analysis of pre-existing information about characters and incorporating that with typical skill saves. Basically looking at their primary ability scores and then adding circumstancial roll modifiers based on things such as their listed occupations (as computer programmers would naturally get a set bonus to doing computer related skill checks, mechanics would get a bonus towards rigging and repairing such equipment, counselors would get a bonus to diplomacy checks, etc.) and then also perhaps the type of environment the character was raised in, their back story, etc.
Basically you would have a simple tier of bonuses/penalties (-2,-4,-6 or +2,+4,+6 perhaps) and a broad list of guidelines on how to make it work.

I don't know, something I'm just playing around with.



I like the sound of this approach; the Experience Level modification table could also be used for something like opposed skill tests.
  
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Re: Hi everyone, I'm Jack Herman
Reply #79 - Oct 7th, 2010 at 9:22am
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PulpCitizen- good point (again, this is just something that is floating about in my head and I've not had the chance to sit at the playtest table and give it a spin but something I'm definitely going to personally play with to see if it is feasible and fairly accurate).
-Granted, a more polished skills system would probably give more fine tuned, accurate results, but that would possibly come at a cost of having to add additional information to character sheets and so forth. Coming up with a system that can pretty much take data that already exists and compute it is my preference... but that is just my preference.
« Last Edit: Oct 7th, 2010 at 9:23am by davew »  

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Re: Hi everyone, I'm Jack Herman
Reply #80 - Oct 7th, 2010 at 9:29am
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davew wrote on Oct 7th, 2010 at 9:22am:
PulpCitizen- good point (again, this is just something that is floating about in my head and I've not had the chance to sit at the playtest table and give it a spin but something I'm definitely going to personally play with to see if it is feasible and fairly accurate).
-Granted, a more polished skills system would probably give more fine tuned, accurate results, but that would possibly come at a cost of having to add additional information to character sheets and so forth. Coming up with a system that can pretty much take data that already exists and compute it is my preference... but that is just my preference.


I have to say that 'bolt-on' is my preference as well; and if anything can bolted on fairly seamlessly like you envisage, then all the better.
  
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Re: Hi everyone, I'm Jack Herman
Reply #81 - Oct 7th, 2010 at 9:33am
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I'm at work right now, but I'll chime in on this I prefer that any "new" skills system keep it simple, and not try to re-write the existing rules.
  

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Reply #82 - Oct 7th, 2010 at 10:02am
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PulpCitizen wrote on Oct 7th, 2010 at 9:29am:
davew wrote on Oct 7th, 2010 at 9:22am:
PulpCitizen- good point (again, this is just something that is floating about in my head and I've not had the chance to sit at the playtest table and give it a spin but something I'm definitely going to personally play with to see if it is feasible and fairly accurate).
-Granted, a more polished skills system would probably give more fine tuned, accurate results, but that would possibly come at a cost of having to add additional information to character sheets and so forth. Coming up with a system that can pretty much take data that already exists and compute it is my preference... but that is just my preference.


I have to say that 'bolt-on' is my preference as well; and if anything can bolted on fairly seamlessly like you envisage, then all the better.


Honestly, taking the mutual agreed preference (that exists so far) for this in consideration, the write up should be less a set of rules but more of a set of guidelines of how to take pre-existing rules and make them work for a desired goal, plus some modifiers... course, we've already covered this. Basically, what I'm seeing in my head is not entirely removed from a fair bit of some of the writing that occurred in the SRD 3.0/3.5 scene. Basically the "new uses" for pre-existing skills type of writing (in which this would be "new uses" for pre-existing saving throws) combined with an exploration of circumstancial bonuses/penalties and an overview of dozens of possible skill need scenarios that would define a framework guideline of potential difficulty rolls (this would require a point roll against this score total, that would require a... etc.)
Basically, everything we've talked about, just bringing it into light.  Wink
  

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Re: Hi everyone, I'm Jack Herman
Reply #83 - Oct 7th, 2010 at 11:26am
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Any planned expansion should include more examples of open-ended powers like Body Power, Chemical Power, Magical Spells, Psionics, Mutant Power, and Willpower B.
  
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Reply #84 - Oct 7th, 2010 at 10:53pm
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Regarding skills, I agree keeping it in line and not requiring the rewrite of all of the characters in existence.  I stand by our old method, which cobbles together the NPC generation.  Roll 2 knowledge areas (FGU core pg 31, MHG core pg 35), one is the character's profession, the other is their hobby.  Then saves are made as d20 through d100 against the appropriate statistic.

To represent super geniuses, I'd allow them to roll again on the table for each d10 they get from heightened intelligence.  After that, if the character wants to train in a new job or whatnot, it's all RP based (or they can use inventing points to represent extra time spent learning other subjects).
  
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Reply #85 - Oct 8th, 2010 at 9:28am
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Imaginos wrote on Oct 7th, 2010 at 10:53pm:
Regarding skills, I agree keeping it in line and not requiring the rewrite of all of the characters in existence.  I stand by our old method, which cobbles together the NPC generation.  Roll 2 knowledge areas (FGU core pg 31, MHG core pg 35), one is the character's profession, the other is their hobby.  Then saves are made as d20 through d100 against the appropriate statistic.

To represent super geniuses, I'd allow them to roll again on the table for each d10 they get from heightened intelligence.  After that, if the character wants to train in a new job or whatnot, it's all RP based (or they can use inventing points to represent extra time spent learning other subjects).


Also an expansion on other ways to use inventing points.
  
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Re: Hi everyone, I'm Jack Herman
Reply #86 - Oct 8th, 2010 at 10:30am
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Galaxy Boy wrote on Oct 7th, 2010 at 11:26am:
Any planned expansion should include more examples of open-ended powers like Body Power, Chemical Power, Magical Spells, Psionics, Mutant Power, and Willpower B.

Just always had a resistance too rules open for abuse. To  easily leads to power creepage.  I've always thought the farther you get away from the way Jack and Jeff originally designed those rules to work the greater potential for abuse or trouble you were setting yourself up for.

I have similiar thoughts on established comic book character conversions - best ever were Jeff's Teen Titan conversions. They are smpiliar and less powerful than the large majority of those you find anywhere else. I see them as the perfect eample of how too often we try to use the rules to build a character, instead of building a character using the rules.

I'm not sure I'm expressing that quite right but I hope my intentions are there somewhere Embarrassed

Okay this time I really promise, no more soapbox. Probably inadvertantly have offended someone, and to you I apologize. Just a couple thoughts on protecting the integrity of the designers original concepts Lips Sealed
« Last Edit: Oct 8th, 2010 at 11:16pm by Ranger »  

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Reply #87 - Oct 8th, 2010 at 1:20pm
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Not offended in the slightest myself.   Smiley
  

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Re: Open-Ended Powers
Reply #88 - Oct 8th, 2010 at 4:14pm
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Galaxy Boy wrote on Oct 7th, 2010 at 11:26am:
Any planned expansion should include more examples of open-ended powers like Body Power, Chemical Power, Magical Spells, Psionics, Mutant Power, and Willpower B. 


I don't know if this will help, but when I first joined this forum I began a number of threads in the Citadel section to show how several of the open-ended powers were used in the 1980s resources. Here are links to some of those threads.

Psionic Possibilities
http://www.villainsandvigilantesforum.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1253119008

Poison/Chemical Attacks from Sourcebooks
http://www.villainsandvigilantesforum.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1256446819

Heightened Senses Examples: http://www.villainsandvigilantesforum.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1253751085

Stealthy Powers and Abilities
http://www.villainsandvigilantesforum.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1258690857

Webs and Wall-Crawling
http://www.villainsandvigilantesforum.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1254789983

Willpower and Raised Stats
http://www.villainsandvigilantesforum.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1254609604

Mutant Power: Earth Control
http://www.villainsandvigilantesforum.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1253580746

Bionic and Cybernetic Examples
http://www.villainsandvigilantesforum.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1257129870

Insect and Plant Control Examples
http://www.villainsandvigilantesforum.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1252902081



« Last Edit: Oct 8th, 2010 at 4:19pm by polarboy »  
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Re: Hi everyone, I'm Jack Herman
Reply #89 - Mar 22nd, 2011 at 4:12pm
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So did they ever settle it?
Are there enough fans to make it lucrative for them to even produce materials?
Much as I love the game... I just don't see how well this one can survive when it has had it's head held underwater for so long.
But I could be wrong. There might very well be more RPGers out there than I think.
I was just under the assumption that people would rather play stuff on game-stations or Computer over table top dice rolling.

Too bad the whole lot of them simply couldn't put their heads together (A long time ago) and produced materials back when it would have really mattered... and not virtually two decades later.

That is my opinion.

G7
  

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Re: Hi everyone, I'm Jack Herman
Reply #90 - Mar 23rd, 2011 at 12:06am
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G7,

Monkey House has a deal with Cubicle 7 to distribute V&V now, so they will be dropping their PoD releases for regular print runs in a few months. I'd assume that's a good sign that the game is seeing a resurgence in popularity. Now that Zenith Comics released the first 3rd party book under the compatibility license, hopefully we will see more such book. I am hoping to do one myself, as I'm prepping a release for a few different supers rpg systems. Last year saw a slew of new super rpgs come out, so it seems that supers gaming is on the rise again. Hopefully V&V can gain new fans (and regain some old ones) during this resurgence.
  

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Reply #91 - Mar 23rd, 2011 at 12:25am
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And Fantasy Games Unlimited has a pretty massive list of new product too.  But don't take my word for it:
http://www.fantasygamesunlimited.net/category/Villains-and-Vigilantes-8

Oops!  Forgot to add the free stuff:
http://www.fantasygamesunlimited.net/page7.html
« Last Edit: Mar 23rd, 2011 at 12:26am by Display Name »  
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Reply #92 - Mar 23rd, 2011 at 5:37am
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Well hopefully it works out for both companies in whatever manner that may be possible.

2.5 decades is a long time to wait. They do indeed have a more visible advertisement for the Super Hero Genre at least, That might be in their favor.
Though I do still wonder if it would be a lucrative enough venture to try to sustain. I certainly hope so.

I had always hoped to have a published piece of material or module with the Villains and Vigilantes logo on it (With me getting to do at least a cover). Of course my knowledge of the game is still only the Original system that I purchased.
But it isn't like that is some massive hurdle.

I am rooting for both Teams. Though FGU should have done more than it has, It had the opportunity (Especially after the creation of the Net).

G7
  

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Re: Hi everyone, I'm Jack Herman
Reply #93 - Mar 23rd, 2011 at 3:57pm
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I think the conventions are showing there are customers.  The VandV twitter account for Monkey House Games stated that they sold out of all the rule books at CoastCon on the second day and the discussion panel for V&V 3.0 rules was very engaging with a good turn out.
« Last Edit: Mar 23rd, 2011 at 3:58pm by The Cougar »  

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Reply #94 - Mar 23rd, 2011 at 6:03pm
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So what was the number of 'Rule Books' sold? 10? 1000?
Hype is nice... what are the hard facts?

I am sure the panel was a lot of fun. Any idea on the number of participants who engaged?

I am just looking at this from an arms length. I have invested money into things before. So I know first hand there can be a lot of smoke and mirrors when it comes to this kind of stuff.
I hope people start knocking down doors wanting material for this particular RPG. I hope it becomes all the rage. That would make me giddy as hell!
I have recently heard there is a new resurgence in AD&D or D&D again. RPGs have only gotten stronger over the years (Irregardless of what format they use).
So I certainly wish them all the luck in this endeavor, I hope the demand is so high that they actually have to expand (Maybe even create some jobs for people!).

But when it comes to the business end of the spectrum involving this sort of stuff. I have to cast a wary eye.
Sorry... don't mean to deflate anything for anyone. I certainly would dislike for this not to be what the hype makes it out to be.

Just me and my opinions.
G7
  

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