So I have been giving this some thought. Far more than the topic deserves, but I'm totally OC (not really a disorder). At any rate, here are my thoughts on the matter.

V&V is a game about Comic book super-heroes battling super-villains, and before a conversation an the topic can be started we all have to have that foremost in our minds. Crazy stuff happens in comic books. We don't normally think that Batman would trip over his own feet, or that Superman would catch "that bug that's going around". Yes, Batman might trip, and Superman might call in sick one day, but not from mundane causes. So we really need to have that in mind when discussing such matters in V&V.

A lot has been written here on the very topic that it seem unfair that a character with an Endurance of 60 has the same 5% chance of catching some disease as a character with an endurance of 19.

The V&V 2nd edition rules point out that saving throws may be made vs either 1d20 or 1d100. 1d100 is nice for more-powerful characters, but is pretty harsh for guys with stats under 50. 1d20 is great for lower-powerd characters, but becomes a stumbling block once a stat exceeds 19.

The legacy adventure 2024 "The Secret in the Swamp" used Stat x3 vs 1d100, which works well enough for stats up to about 33ish.

The new-era Adventure "Final Fight with the Furies" introduces a new twist. It uses a little more math (and includes a well-made table), but then V&V players love math anyway, so that's not so harsh.

And, of course, I have taken a whack at the issue here: http://www.villainsandvigilantesforum.com/public_html/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=...

Not one of these solutions is perfect. Some GMs and players may love one but really dislike another, although they are attempts to solve very the same issue. So, what to do?

The first thing we must understand is that V&V requires a good GM. Some games don't require much at all from a GM - Battletech is a great example of such a game. For the most part, however, every Super-Hero RPG requires a good GM. I've looked into this. I've played other systems. They all require a good GM, and V&V is still the best, even with its flaws. That being said, it's really the GM's call on when to make a player perform a saving throw for his/her character.

As a contributor, I understand the desire on the part of many to fix this issue. But as a GM, I want it left alone because it gives me a lot of flexibility. Sometimes I make really powerful characters roll vs a Stat "just because". Sometimes I think there is some justification for making the character roll a save, and I'm seeing the 5% failure chance as a way to break up the monotony of games filled with Supermen. And sometimes I make everyone roll for a very sound reason, but if the guy with an AGL of 198 fails on a roll of 20, I just have something embarrassing happen to him (or even allow him to make a second save vs the same stat and only have bad things happen if he rolls two "20"s in a row - 1:1,600400 chance).

Also, as a contributor, I'm not really permitted to discuss what I feel is the best solution here in an open forum.

There are, of course, as many solutions as there are GMs, and whatever solution works best for you is the right one. But keep something in mind, when the rules get in the way of the story - toss the rules, run with the story.

Lol me and TB agree 100%. I'd rather "role" play than "roll" play and day of the week. It's a lazy GM that any have fun with the fact Supes rolled 03 on the die and then find a fun way to make it part of his story. Use what works for you and chuck what doesn't. All analogies breakdown at some point so do rules that simulate a physically impossible universe. Have fun

Display Name wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 10:53pm:


Agreed. - very insightful, Ranger.

  Personally I enjoy some of the outcomes of a critical fumble. Whether it be a 20 or a 96+. Hell I seem to have made it an Art form lately with some of my characters rolls.

  It depends on what the GM does with it and John has come up with some really good story lines after I screw up a roll.

  Critical hits have a good effect of course also but a double damage Power Blast is short term though exciting at the time and can obviously change an outcome or at least the time it took to take out the Baddies. Also John created the rule where if you hit by more than 10 points of what you needed it becomes so devastating that the receiver of the hit cannot even roll with it. Solid Hit Rule. I think that rule separates the High powered and street level character enough also.

  A character with a 35 Agility really should catch the falling baby most of the time and I also understand the question of why should the character with a 21 Agility be treated the same as the character with a 35 Agility.

I don't think that the higher Agility character should be punished but a simple solution may be to let them roll the difference that is left over after the 20 for example.

Dr Agile has a 35 Agility and rolls a 20 for his Agility save. OK normally that is a failure for anyone. Give him another roll. If he rolls 1-14 he saves and catches said falling Baby. If he rolls a 15-20 it is still a critical failure.

  Like I said. I like the Criticals but I think this is the simplest option for someone with a very high score and still leaves room for error though greatly lessened, which is well deserved since the score is so high. It could still be combined with difficulty of task also.

  I'll just keep rolling my 20's and 96's and enjoy what happens, I hope. 

I have no idea what you just said, my I is a 4.

Paul wrote on Mar 19^th, 2013 at 12:55pm:

. . . or my normal response of "Duh, ummm ... what was my target number again!"

Here is a simple solution for characters with stats over 20 (in regard to a d20 save).

Roll d20.  If you roll a 20, roll again and add, then continue if you roll a 20 again, up to the point that you either stop rolling 20s, or surpass the character's stat.  If you have to stop before you hit the stat, the character succeeds, even if they rolled 3 20's and a 2, but their stat is 63.

Example:  Chupacadabra has an Intelligence of 44.  He is trying to figure out a puzzle.  He makes a d20 save.  He rolls a 20. Then he rolls another d20, getting a 17.  He succeeded at the task because his total is 37, which is less than 44.

Easy, simple, and just a couple of possible extra die rolls.  Rewards high stats, doesn't penalize low stats.

Okay - so you have a 95% chance of success on that first roll - totally consistent with ye olde rules.
Then you have another 95% chance of success on the second d20 roll - still okay.
Then on the third roll you have a 20% chance of success (assuming Chupacadabra [very nice] has a STAT of 44)

Let's face it, he's probably never going to have to roll the third d20. AND, lower stat characters still get their 5% (at least) chance to succeed.

So - not a bad method.

Cool.

Hmmm... This is not a bad ruling actually!  I think I'll ask my players what they think of it.  Thanks!

I am using a slightly altered variant of Jeff Dee's Saves & Tasks system that I found a link for a while ago. It does seem to make a difference, especially when you add in difficulty modifiers.

As an aside, I did spot another instance of rolling d100 vs Stat x3. the first one is in "Secret in the Swamp" and is Agility based, the other is in "Pentacle Plot" (page 7) and is INT based.

Just nice to know Statx3 vs d100 was used more than once. It also lend some credence to the notion that it is a "real" method for rolling saves, even if it only really works up to a stat of 31.

Easy Save: Stat vs d20
Medium Save: Statx3 vs d100
Hard Save: Stat vs d100

Now... where did I put my medication...

Ironnerd wrote on Apr 8^th, 2013 at 4:50pm:



Super-Easy Save: Stat vs. 1d6

Ironnerd wrote on Apr 8^th, 2013 at 9:27pm:


In my book, catching an animal is an attack roll, not a stat-based saving throw.

Perhaps you are using the optional rules that AK/JB developed. That, of course, is your choice.

Ironnerd wrote on Apr 8^th, 2013 at 10:03pm:


Exploding bombs make attack rolls in the V&V rulebook. You must be using AK/JB's optional rules on that one.

Clarification on the above:

Just so you'se guys know, that whole different dice representing different difficulty levels for making a save was tongue-in-cheek. Using all those dice might kinda fun for a game or two, but would rapidly spiral out of control.

Also, as Polarboy indicated, even when I'm just joking around, I need to be accurate - thus the corrections.

LATER 

A player must save vs. Inteligence d20 to correctly pick up a d8 instead of a d10 (or vice versa).

Optional rule: The player adds +1 on the skill roll per level of the highest-level character the player ever played.

A player who accidentally rolled the wrong die (and anyone else at the gaming table)  notices the mistake afterward by making a successful roll to Detect Hidden.

Niiiice...

Do you have to roll d20 v INT to correctly read a d30?

Too much fun!

I was flipping through my old BESM book (Big Eyes, Small Mouth - the defunct anime RPG). It had a nice little sidebar in it that pertains to this basic subject:

When to ROLL:
* When the unpredictability of the dice adds excitement to the game
* The action is foreign to the character
* The character is distracted and cannot focus
* Another character or NPC is working directly against the character
* Pure luck
* The action is not of trivial difficulty
* Outside forces influence the action
* The player or GM wants to roll dice

When NOT to roll DICE:
* A roll would reduce the enjoyment of the game
* The action is routine for the character
* The action is performed by an NPC and will have no impact on any characters or NPC;s in the game
* The action requires a trivial amount of talent compared to the character's Stat level.

It may be from a different game, but these rules are universal.