Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 2.0 art vs 2.1 art (Read 6195 times)
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2.0 art vs 2.1 art
Apr 21st, 2015 at 8:20pm
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One thing that I found STRIKING about the 2.1 rules was that the art seemed of a lower quality, despite having been done by the same artist.

What happened?  Was there a different inker for the 2.0 rulebook? 

I am not trying to throw stones, as my own drawing ability is not very good.  I'm just curious.  I really enjoyed the 2.0 art, and was disappointed by 2.1.

Just compare the covers:
  

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Re: 2.0 art vs 2.1 art
Reply #1 - Apr 21st, 2015 at 8:51pm
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Speaking about artwork:

When I played this game in the early 80's, we had character sheets with generic superhero outlines in the picture box so you could draw in the details of costume, weapons, etc.  It saved the trouble of drawing a convincing hero or villain figure, if like me, you are challenged in the art department.

As I recall, there were figures in two or three poses, both male and female.

Does anyone else remember these or were they something local to us?

I would love to get a copy of these sheets for my current game...

PS:

I also prefer the original cover but it might just be nostalgia...
  
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Re: 2.0 art vs 2.1 art
Reply #2 - Apr 22nd, 2015 at 5:58am
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Several people have noticed the degradation of Jeff Dee's art skills between the revised edition and 2.1

It's likely because he stopped drawing in the interim.
  
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Matt
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Re: 2.0 art vs 2.1 art
Reply #3 - Apr 22nd, 2015 at 10:03am
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The figure work has gotten doughy for some reason and also the art in 2.1 looks like it was blown up to a larger size as the images often look pixelated and fuzzy.  2.0 art is mostly far superior.  Probably the best super hero rpg art outside of TSR MSH or DC Heroes.
  
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Re: 2.0 art vs 2.1 art
Reply #4 - Apr 22nd, 2015 at 1:39pm
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I'm not sure it's fair to say it's degraded but rather simply different. Nobody's art is the same at 50 as it was at 20. It's natural that an artist style is just going to change after so many years.  I believe over the decades Jeff has done a lot of computer game design and less comic book art as a professional and this too would effect his style.

Just one mans thoughts on the subject.
  

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Re: 2.0 art vs 2.1 art
Reply #5 - Apr 22nd, 2015 at 5:20pm
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Usually an artist gets better with age and experience barring physical or visual problems.
  
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Re: 2.0 art vs 2.1 art
Reply #6 - Apr 22nd, 2015 at 8:11pm
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I also noticed that just near the end of the V&V early days, Jeff's stuff was getting a...let's say a rushed look.

Compare early art like Empress, to the art for Mystic just three years later and it seems like a different guy did the two pieces. One most assuredly in the style of the other, but something is off. He starts getting blockier in his human shapes where as before, and especially in his earlier D&D work, Jeff was damn near untouchable in making dynamic and realistic/nautralistic human forms.

Now in all fairness, his worst bar napkin scribbles still put most others to shame, but I'd really like to know what happened to cause the degradation as well.
  
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Re: 2.0 art vs 2.1 art
Reply #7 - Apr 22nd, 2015 at 8:12pm
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Oh, and I agree with Mat about the MSH/DC Heroes. I also had a real soft spot for the Jeff Grubb style that would show up in his Dragon magazine Marvel articles. Not the best, but there was something endearing to it for me at least.
  
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Re: 2.0 art vs 2.1 art
Reply #8 - Apr 22nd, 2015 at 8:21pm
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You mean Jeff Butler, I think. He also drew a Green Hornet comic books for a while in the '80s. His art was a little stiff but very good aside from that.  Made me think maybe he wasn't used to sequential storytelling art so much as the covers and what not he is better known for. 

http://www.jeff-butler.com/gallery-green-hornet-art.htm
« Last Edit: Apr 22nd, 2015 at 8:23pm by Matt »  
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Re: 2.0 art vs 2.1 art
Reply #9 - Apr 23rd, 2015 at 6:51am
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Mr. Dee's work in the 1979 edition of V&V was ... not as good, but hey, he was a kid! Then the 1982 version comes out and ZANG! Excellent art! I mean really good stuff. Only Mr. Willingham really competed with Mr. Dee for best art in V&V. Then I got the comic book, and while I liked it (still have issues 1-3...) the art was "okay". It really struck me that there was something about Mr. Dee's style that worked a lot better in Black and White, then in color. Mr. Willingham, on the other hand, only got better with "Elementals".

When I saw the art for 2.1, I was rather non-nonplussed. Given the conversation with Mr. Dee on this forum (see "Enjoy the Boobies"), I can imagine that some of his passion for the project has been extinguished, and he can't bring himself to do the art he once did. The art for Living Legends was still pretty good, but the 2.1 art seems to lack a certain "spirit".
« Last Edit: Apr 23rd, 2015 at 6:56am by Ironnerd »  

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Re: 2.0 art vs 2.1 art
Reply #10 - Apr 23rd, 2015 at 7:58am
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Matt wrote on Apr 22nd, 2015 at 8:21pm:
You mean Jeff Butler, I think. He also drew a Green Hornet comic books for a while in the '80s. His art was a little stiff but very good aside from that.  Made me think maybe he wasn't used to sequential storytelling art so much as the covers and what not he is better known for. 

http://www.jeff-butler.com/gallery-green-hornet-art.htm

YES! Thanks, totally confused my Jeffs.  Wink
  
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Re: 2.0 art vs 2.1 art
Reply #11 - Apr 23rd, 2015 at 9:26am
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Just to be clear, I am not saying Dee's 2.1 art is bad.  It still beats heck out of the vast majority of RPG art I have seen.  I just think it seems sloppier or more rushed than 2.0. Still can draw rings around most folks.
  
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Re: 2.0 art vs 2.1 art
Reply #12 - Apr 23rd, 2015 at 11:20am
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Oh, absolutely! 2.1 is still really nice art, it's just sorta missing something that was in the old 2.0 art. Passion, fire, spark... something... I guess it's whatever makes the difference between really good and great.
  

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Re: 2.0 art vs 2.1 art
Reply #13 - Apr 23rd, 2015 at 6:29pm
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Honestly I think the old D&D inks were the best of them all.

A few modules and the Deities and Demigods books were amazing

How old was he then?
  
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Re: 2.0 art vs 2.1 art
Reply #14 - Apr 23rd, 2015 at 10:49pm
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I still feel   Dee owes me money for the 2.1 rule book.  The art was terrible, the graphics were shoddy and pixelated.   The lay out left some pages three quarters blank....

For a guy that wants to make a living as an artist he should try harder.

Say what you want about Bizar, but he puts out a product that looks great.   Funny that a business man makes better art than an artist.
  

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Re: 2.0 art vs 2.1 art
Reply #15 - Apr 23rd, 2015 at 11:26pm
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Let's hope the mooted 3rd edition is better. 

Although I personally dislike the mooted changes/"improvements" I've read about on the MHG forums. To date nothing I've seen there has sounded like a change for the better. Sounds more like Living Legends, a game I have never even managed to read through.
  
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Re: 2.0 art vs 2.1 art
Reply #16 - Apr 24th, 2015 at 9:05am
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I read Living Legends.  It was ... not V&V. The Cover art for V&V 2.1 is actually in Living Legends as a black-and-white drawing where it is dated 1985, so it's not that his art degraded over 30 years, it happened in the span of three years. It also means the cover art for LL is newer than the art for V&V 2.1. There is a page from the old comic book, and an update of Motivator/Mirage (just not the same...). The art Mr. Dee used spans about 20 years (he has Shatterman form 1986, and some dude dated 2005

It has a point system to balance everything out. It has more weaknesses. It has a skill system. It's not a bad system, but it's not V&V - and V&V is a pretty great system. Sadly for LL, there were similar and more complete systems out there at the same time that had better marketing.
  

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Re: 2.0 art vs 2.1 art
Reply #17 - Apr 24th, 2015 at 6:47pm
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« Last Edit: Apr 24th, 2015 at 6:54pm by Display Name »  
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Re: 2.0 art vs 2.1 art
Reply #18 - Apr 25th, 2015 at 5:15am
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Like most others, I too don't find the art (usually) to be as good in 2.1 as 2.0.  That said, there are some images in 2.0 that I think aren't very good, and some from 2.1 (like one I bought the original on) that are outstanding (and better than much of 2.0).

I don't think I agree that artists tend to get better.  I know Willingham commented about having to draw bigger now that he's gotten older, and I myself have found that I can't do art as well now that I need reading glasses.  I've found that many artists I loved back in the 80s (John Byrne, Patrick Zircher) do stuff today that I don't think is as good as what they did back then (I still love their old stuff, but don't care as much for their newer material).
  
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Re: 2.0 art vs 2.1 art
Reply #19 - Apr 25th, 2015 at 4:33pm
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I'm not an artist, but as a writer I really appreciate the work they do to make my work, and the work of the people I'm reading about pop off the page and enter my head.

2.0 is excellent. 2.1 is good. I think there is a fundamental difference in the style, and people usually like one style over the other. The Sharp style (2.0) feels really precise and clear, whereas the Soft style (2.1) has a cartoon-like feel to it. I think the soft style is easier to do, less demanding, and more open to interpretation.

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Re: 2.0 art vs 2.1 art
Reply #20 - May 23rd, 2015 at 1:34am
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The 2.1 cover is just not good. Bad composition: People directly in front of buildings, when those buildings could have been off to the side; no depiction of the surface the characters are standing (?) on. Poor color choices, that reduce contrast and limit the eye's ability to see what's going on. Poor selection of characters: Two character are too well known to give you the "that could be my character!" feeling (or if you don't know the Spyder, then you get the "ew—hairy chest and bare toes" vibe), and the other two look more comical than anything else. Poor subject matter: Why is there a guy propping up the flying dude, and why does that chick have a leash going up to the flying dude's crouch? (Of course that's *not* what's really going on, but then you get back to the poor composition that doesn't make the situation clear...)

The 2.0 cover is hugely superior in terms of composition, color choice, and subject matter. It's very clear what's going on and who the bad guy is. And the characters are drawn generically enough to give you the "that could be my character!" feeling.
  
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