So I have been giving this some thought. Far more than the topic deserves, but I'm totally OC (not really a disorder). At any rate, here are my thoughts on the matter.

V&V is a game about Comic book super-heroes battling super-villains, and before a conversation an the topic can be started we all have to have that foremost in our minds. Crazy stuff happens in comic books. We don't normally think that Batman would trip over his own feet, or that Superman would catch "that bug that's going around". Yes, Batman might trip, and Superman might call in sick one day, but not from mundane causes. So we really need to have that in mind when discussing such matters in V&V.

A lot has been written here on the very topic that it seem unfair that a character with an Endurance of 60 has the same 5% chance of catching some disease as a character with an endurance of 19.

The V&V 2nd edition rules point out that saving throws may be made vs either 1d20 or 1d100. 1d100 is nice for more-powerful characters, but is pretty harsh for guys with stats under 50. 1d20 is great for lower-powerd characters, but becomes a stumbling block once a stat exceeds 19.

The legacy adventure 2024 "The Secret in the Swamp" used Stat x3 vs 1d100, which works well enough for stats up to about 33ish.

The new-era Adventure "Final Fight with the Furies" introduces a new twist. It uses a little more math (and includes a well-made table), but then V&V players love math anyway, so that's not so harsh.

And, of course, I have taken a whack at the issue here: http://www.villainsandvigilantesforum.com/public_html/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=...

Not one of these solutions is perfect. Some GMs and players may love one but really dislike another, although they are attempts to solve very the same issue. So, what to do?

The first thing we must understand is that V&V requires a good GM. Some games don't require much at all from a GM - Battletech is a great example of such a game. For the most part, however, every Super-Hero RPG requires a good GM. I've looked into this. I've played other systems. They all require a good GM, and V&V is still the best, even with its flaws. That being said, it's really the GM's call on when to make a player perform a saving throw for his/her character.

As a contributor, I understand the desire on the part of many to fix this issue. But as a GM, I want it left alone because it gives me a lot of flexibility. Sometimes I make really powerful characters roll vs a Stat "just because". Sometimes I think there is some justification for making the character roll a save, and I'm seeing the 5% failure chance as a way to break up the monotony of games filled with Supermen. And sometimes I make everyone roll for a very sound reason, but if the guy with an AGL of 198 fails on a roll of 20, I just have something embarrassing happen to him (or even allow him to make a second save vs the same stat and only have bad things happen if he rolls two "20"s in a row - 1:1,600400 chance).

Also, as a contributor, I'm not really permitted to discuss what I feel is the best solution here in an open forum.

There are, of course, as many solutions as there are GMs, and whatever solution works best for you is the right one. But keep something in mind, when the rules get in the way of the story - toss the rules, run with the story.

Lol me and TB agree 100%. I'd rather "role" play than "roll" play and day of the week. It's a lazy GM that any have fun with the fact Supes rolled 03 on the die and then find a fun way to make it part of his story. Use what works for you and chuck what doesn't. All analogies breakdown at some point so do rules that simulate a physically impossible universe. Have fun

Display Name wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 10:53pm:


Agreed. - very insightful, Ranger.

  Personally I enjoy some of the outcomes of a critical fumble. Whether it be a 20 or a 96+. Hell I seem to have made it an Art form lately with some of my characters rolls.

  It depends on what the GM does with it and John has come up with some really good story lines after I screw up a roll.

  Critical hits have a good effect of course also but a double damage Power Blast is short term though exciting at the time and can obviously change an outcome or at least the time it took to take out the Baddies. Also John created the rule where if you hit by more than 10 points of what you needed it becomes so devastating that the receiver of the hit cannot even roll with it. Solid Hit Rule. I think that rule separates the High powered and street level character enough also.

  A character with a 35 Agility really should catch the falling baby most of the time and I also understand the question of why should the character with a 21 Agility be treated the same as the character with a 35 Agility.

I don't think that the higher Agility character should be punished but a simple solution may be to let them roll the difference that is left over after the 20 for example.

Dr Agile has a 35 Agility and rolls a 20 for his Agility save. OK normally that is a failure for anyone. Give him another roll. If he rolls 1-14 he saves and catches said falling Baby. If he rolls a 15-20 it is still a critical failure.

  Like I said. I like the Criticals but I think this is the simplest option for someone with a very high score and still leaves room for error though greatly lessened, which is well deserved since the score is so high. It could still be combined with difficulty of task also.

  I'll just keep rolling my 20's and 96's and enjoy what happens, I hope. 

I have no idea what you just said, my I is a 4.

Paul wrote on Mar 19^th, 2013 at 12:55pm:

. . . or my normal response of "Duh, ummm ... what was my target number again!"

Here is a simple solution for characters with stats over 20 (in regard to a d20 save).

Roll d20.  If you roll a 20, roll again and add, then continue if you roll a 20 again, up to the point that you either stop rolling 20s, or surpass the character's stat.  If you have to stop before you hit the stat, the character succeeds, even if they rolled 3 20's and a 2, but their stat is 63.

Example:  Chupacadabra has an Intelligence of 44.  He is trying to figure out a puzzle.  He makes a d20 save.  He rolls a 20. Then he rolls another d20, getting a 17.  He succeeded at the task because his total is 37, which is less than 44.

Easy, simple, and just a couple of possible extra die rolls.  Rewards high stats, doesn't penalize low stats.

Okay - so you have a 95% chance of success on that first roll - totally consistent with ye olde rules.
Then you have another 95% chance of success on the second d20 roll - still okay.
Then on the third roll you have a 20% chance of success (assuming Chupacadabra [very nice] has a STAT of 44)

Let's face it, he's probably never going to have to roll the third d20. AND, lower stat characters still get their 5% (at least) chance to succeed.

So - not a bad method.

Cool.

Hmmm... This is not a bad ruling actually!  I think I'll ask my players what they think of it.  Thanks!

I am using a slightly altered variant of Jeff Dee's Saves & Tasks system that I found a link for a while ago. It does seem to make a difference, especially when you add in difficulty modifiers.

As an aside, I did spot another instance of rolling d100 vs Stat x3. the first one is in "Secret in the Swamp" and is Agility based, the other is in "Pentacle Plot" (page 7) and is INT based.

Just nice to know Statx3 vs d100 was used more than once. It also lend some credence to the notion that it is a "real" method for rolling saves, even if it only really works up to a stat of 31.

Easy Save: Stat vs d20
Medium Save: Statx3 vs d100
Hard Save: Stat vs d100

Now... where did I put my medication...

Ironnerd wrote on Apr 8^th, 2013 at 4:50pm:



Super-Easy Save: Stat vs. 1d6

Ironnerd wrote on Apr 8^th, 2013 at 9:27pm:


In my book, catching an animal is an attack roll, not a stat-based saving throw.

Perhaps you are using the optional rules that AK/JB developed. That, of course, is your choice.

Ironnerd wrote on Apr 8^th, 2013 at 10:03pm:


Exploding bombs make attack rolls in the V&V rulebook. You must be using AK/JB's optional rules on that one.

Clarification on the above:

Just so you'se guys know, that whole different dice representing different difficulty levels for making a save was tongue-in-cheek. Using all those dice might kinda fun for a game or two, but would rapidly spiral out of control.

Also, as Polarboy indicated, even when I'm just joking around, I need to be accurate - thus the corrections.

LATER 

A player must save vs. Inteligence d20 to correctly pick up a d8 instead of a d10 (or vice versa).

Optional rule: The player adds +1 on the skill roll per level of the highest-level character the player ever played.

A player who accidentally rolled the wrong die (and anyone else at the gaming table)  notices the mistake afterward by making a successful roll to Detect Hidden.

Niiiice...

Do you have to roll d20 v INT to correctly read a d30?

Too much fun!

I was flipping through my old BESM book (Big Eyes, Small Mouth - the defunct anime RPG). It had a nice little sidebar in it that pertains to this basic subject:

When to ROLL:
* When the unpredictability of the dice adds excitement to the game
* The action is foreign to the character
* The character is distracted and cannot focus
* Another character or NPC is working directly against the character
* Pure luck
* The action is not of trivial difficulty
* Outside forces influence the action
* The player or GM wants to roll dice

When NOT to roll DICE:
* A roll would reduce the enjoyment of the game
* The action is routine for the character
* The action is performed by an NPC and will have no impact on any characters or NPC;s in the game
* The action requires a trivial amount of talent compared to the character's Stat level.

It may be from a different game, but these rules are universal.

Well, the concept is that if a character has an INT of ... 160, why roll to see if he can solve the NYT Crossword? Or if he has an AGL of 60, do we really need to roll to see if he avoids that suddenly-opening chasm? Some GM's would say "YES!" others would disagree. I would say "Yes, if it was a critical moment in the campaign. Otherwise, no."

And there are times when I basically flip Two-Face's coin.

It's the old argument of Role play vs Roll play, I guess. I pick the former.

Nicely played!

If only Abbot and Costello had played RPGs...

But seriously...

So it's been drilled into my head that an increase of "1" in a basic characteristic equals a 5% change on a save vs d20. This is, obviously, true. Why? Because Basic Char vs 1d20 is shorthand for "Basic Char x 5 vs 1d100". And we all know that saves vs a Characteristic may be optionally made on Basic Char vs 1d100 when things get harder. These two methods of rolling a save represent two ends of the same scale. The easier a task, the higher the Basic Char multiplier value, and the lower higher the difficulty, the lower the multiplier. Simple right?

It’s not explicitly stated in the rules anywhere, but after a bit of use it becomes pretty obvious that Basic Char vs 1d20 is an easier save than Basic Char vs 1d100. There are also variations mentioned in legacy adventures, like Basic Char x3 vs 1d100. It makes sense then that there should be modifiers between x5 and x3, and x3 and x1 (namely x4 and x2).

Basic Char x 5 vs 1d100: BASE Difficulty (Equals "Basic Char vs 1d20").
Basic Char x 4 vs 1d100: Trying – Solving NYT Sunday crossword puzzle (in pen?).
Basic Char x 3 vs 1d100: Challenging – Final exam in Algebra
Basic Char x 2 vs 1d100: Difficult – College Mulitvariable Calculus
Basic Char x 1 vs 1d100: Very difficult – Orbital dynamics

It turns out I’m not alone in thinking this way. I received an e-mail a little while ago with the MHG rules for saves and whadaya know? They called out almost the same thing. And here I thought I was being clever… Oh, well… Still, I don’t read any MHG stuff (because I submit only to FGU and need to keep things to their rules. I figure I get confused pretty easy as it is, so it’s best not to mix in too many other rules), so it’s kinda cool that we were thinking along similar lines.

Of course, a roll can be made easier or harder by changing the multiplier even more.

AMAZINGLY DIFFICULT: Basic Char x 0.5 vs 1d100
AMAZINGLY EAZY: Basic Char x 10 vs 1d100

Of course, not all rolls are “Necessary” (see my earlier post on that subject).

So how does this effect characters with “Really High Stats”? I’m glad you asked. Aside from the many benefits received from high stats (earlier post), the character receives a bonus to all of his/her save rolls.

First, our “Average Jo”
Basic Char: 10
x5 = 50%
x4 = 40%
x3 = 30%
x2 = 20%
x1 = 10%

Now for “Astonishing Lass”
Basic Char: 45
x5 = 95%
x4 = 95%
x3 = 95%
x2 = 90%
x1 = 45%

Finally “Captain Above-Average”
Basic Char: 20
x5 = 95%
x4 = 80%
x3 = 60%
x2 = 40%
x1 = 20%

As you can see, Astonishing Lass has a MUCH better chance of making her saves than Average Jo, and better chances than Captain Above-Average. Sure, she still maxes out at 95% (per the rules), but if the GM really wants to, he/she can just ignore the rules (let’s be honest, any “Rules Variant” is essentially guidance on how to ignore an existing rule - neither good nor bad), and go his/her own way (maybe use a different roll, or set Basic Char x2 as “base difficulty”).

Changing the floor and ceiling may also work:

<edit>
Basic Char x5 01-05 success, 96-100 fail
Basic Char x4 01-04 success, 97-100 fail
Basic Char x3 01-03 success, 98-100 fail
Basic Char x2 01-02 success, 99-100 fail
Basic Char x1 01 success, 100 fail
DANG IT! I knew what I meant to say, I just didn't type it up correctly. Sorry, people.</edit>

I still simply modify the target to match the circumstances. (Basic Char x"X") +/- "Y" vs d20/d100 works pretty well to fine-tune the difficulty.

Anyway, do whatever makes your game run best and produces the most fun.

Just so ya'll know - I have heard no rumors that a skill system is in the works for V&V (FGU side). The PDF in the above post is just something I typed up one afternoon a while back and decided to share with T-bolt. I have had other discussions about a skill system with other players and contributors, which lead me to the ideas contained within the file. I really don't think anything here is Earth-shattering.

As for the save mods... again, nothing Earth-shattering, just a quick write-up of some simple mechanics for saves.

Together, however, the two write-ups do show the benefits received from increased Basic Characteristic levels beyond the simple save.

Just to be clear, I'm not writing any of this as an FGU contributor, I'm writing all of it as a V&V player and fan.

I would call this deafening silence

I am beginning to suspect that saves versus really high basic characteristics is not all that common.

When d20 seems too easy and d100 seems too hard, I'm sticking with d30.

Well, I am getting a d30  - as soon as I find one in the right color.

To be honest, I use on-line die rollers, android dice apps, and even excel spreadshets to roll dice. I still really like real dice though.


I also keep in mind what Mr. Gygax said:

The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules.
Gary Gygax
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/g/gary_gygax.html#DM5BPmd6La1c4ggi.99

I remember playing a session of some spy game back in 1989 or 1990 in Savannah. Two things happened that made me reconsider die rolls as being absolute. First I failed a "driving" skill roll. The GM rolled, consulted his tables, and announced that I had rolled a Lamborghini Countach. I could see a skid into a building, but flipping a Lambo? I don't think so. Second I stepped around a corner and took shotgun blast to the chest and died - on my first actual role-paying turn (I flipped the car on the way to pick up another agent). I died because that's what the GM rolled... That got me thinking - maybe the dice are not always right. Today we refer to this as the difference between ROLE-PLAY and ROLL-PLAY.

</soapbox>

I don't have the issue of the dice telling me a character is dead or stuff like that. I have learned from previous experience to flex. Heck sometimes  even roll a random die and pretend to look up a table - this buys me time to come up with a fun/nearly believable way out of the character's predicament. Kind of parallel to what you said, Polarboy, a lot of role-play happens in the face of a nearly impossible roll, or right after a failed save.

While in general I agree with the sentiments expressed here, I'm not sure that everyone agrees with this or sees things this way.  PC deaths are rare in my games, but they have happened (even in my four color Guardians game), and not just from doing something stupid.

Some games (and genres) are just meant to be more grim and gritty.  While it might not be appropriate for a character to die in one game, in another it might be totally acceptable and appropriate.  Some times (and in some settings), actions can have very harsh consequences.

I think the more important point is that the dice are there to add excitement and drama.  If characters know that they will succeed, no matter what, the game (and situation) loses a lot of its tension; the thrill disappears.

So even if you do things as written above, you want to make sure it doesn't look that way, as it has the potential to drain the excitement from the game.  Danger and negative consequences are parts of some games, and if the PCs don't have anything to lose, they may not truly appreciate the challenges they overcome.

As a long-time Dungeon master, a little secret I never let my players find out, is that, the only way I will kill you off, is if you act stupidly... or if i need a good old DM cleansing session (insert evil laugh here)

Completely agree.  There's been a number of deaths among the Guardians, and more than a few times it's been by the design of the player, as a way for them to bring their character back with all-new powers, look, and abilities (usually with a new name as well!).

In our last session, the bad guy (a major demon) was wiping the floor with the PCs.  Things were looking quite bleak for everyone, and my character, Compass - always a sarcastic smart ass anyway - decided to offer himself up as a sacrifice if the group would be spared.  The Guardians leader, Quiasar, offered himself up as well, but Compass persuaded Q-Man to let him do this (Compass had personally gotten under the skin of the enemy with his snark earlier, and he figured they really wanted him most, anyway).

Let me tell you: I fully expected my character to die/be killed.  I was honestly quite surprised when the GM decided to allow Compass to "come back", though the GM didn't let the other players know this for some time, allowing for some suspense.  When Compass was finally returned, he is now tormented by nightmares (you can read the whole summary in issue #377).

As the saying goes, Those who live by the die, die by the die.

There was a RPG rulebook published in 1999 called "Violence."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_%28role-playing_game%29

It had some rules regarding larger-than-d20 rolls:
When the rules call for a D40 (forty-sided die), instead roll a D4 and a D10
simultaneously; the number appearing on the D10 shall constitute the "ones" digit of
the required number. Subtract 1 from the D4 roll to generate the "tens" digit. A roll of
"00" shall be equivalent to "40". Example: A "1" appears on the D4, and an "8" on the
D10. Subtracting "1" from the D4 roll produces "0"; consequently, the numerical result
is "08", or just "8".

Similarly, when the rules call for a D60 roll, use a D6 and D10 simultaneously; for
a D80 roll, a D8 and D10; and for a D100 roll, two D10s.

D30 die-rolls can be generated in two ways. One is to roll a D6 and D10 simultaneously;
the D6 roll needs to be halved (rounding up), with one subtracted from the result
to produce the tens digit. Alternatively, it is possible to purchase thirty-sided dice, albeit
they are less commonly available than most polyhedral dice.