Hey, all. I thought I would let you all inside my mind for a few minutes to see how the V&V part of it works.

Thanks! I liked the links - good conversations.

I didn't think I was the first to think of it - I mean after 30 years someone else HAD to come up with almost the exact same thing. I would not consider it a "House Rule" though, just a logical extension to an existing rule.

I did leave out one important thing - inventions may not be as powerful as Powers - evens Spells should be "Nearly" as powerful as a Power. But Vi-Brawn's new attack is harder to land than a normal vibe attack, and might do less damage (I dunno how "Brawny" he actually is---I just needed a clever name), so he should be safe in that regard.

Do traps have any variation in lethality or difficulty?

Thank-you, Phrennzy.

I agree that it really only takes one or two traps to get the party wrapped around the axle trying to find more traps (that may not even be there). But if that is what the GM wants, then he should go for it - but probably use with caution.

And yeah... the "Assured Silent Death" sort of trap would suck the fun out of an adventure.

Your example of the bear trap with the precious object on the pressure plate is a really good one. How would you defeat the trap?
First, I would expect the trap to attack at level 4 (since it is non-sentient) and as HtH (with a modifier to hit since the character's body part would be IN the jaws in order to grab the precious thing).

Off the top of my head, you could use TK to defeat it, or teleportation, magnetic powers, vibratory powers, sonic powers, strength, rocks, Non-corporealness, gravity control, Animal control, Plant control, Transmutation, chemical powers (acid), solid illusions, any number of magical spells, and of course heightened speed or a save vs Agility, or any number of ways to defeat such a trap. Teaming up to have multiple vigilantes work together to disable the trap is another good role-playing method.

The idea that the only way to defeat a trap is a save versus a basic characteristic does not take into account the endless possibilities of V&V. Also traps are meant to stop intruders/thieves, not destroy the precious thing (like a bomb would)... And if you fill the room with poison gas, how long will the people who want to protect the precious thing have to wait before they get to look at it again?

Ironnerd wrote on Mar 29^th, 2015 at 5:56pm:


Maybe the trap also has a cleansing component machine vacuum dohickey to evacuate the gas when the bad guys come to clear the room of its victims?

Phrennzy wrote on Mar 30^th, 2015 at 8:39am:


Right. I've been saying this now for years. They're not always level 4 animated servants. I do agree that the rules that apply to the way animated servants run is a good start.

As far as the doohickey - that was a counterpoint that a villain gassing a room might not have to wait any length of time at all to use his room again or retrieve the precious item. That's really at the GM's discretion too.

BTW, V&V's lack of a balancing metric comes from there being no consistent scalars translating between the various level of super powers and the basic characteristics.

But not getting caught up in jargon, Polarboy has posted a number of rules of thumb that help corral the common things into some loose guidelines.

I've only used traps sporadically over the years.  One GM in my campaign threw a really deadly trap at the PCs that nearly ended some of them (the PC was suddenly surrounded by the equivalent of a force field, but the more he used his powers the more damage he took and trouble he was in, IIRC).

It's worth noting that one of the FGU freebies - the restaurant Diamante's - has traps built in to the villains' underground HQ.

Well... I guess I've hit upon another sensitive subject, and for that, I apologize.

What I am saying is that most of us already know your opinion on the matter, since most people on this forum have read your Optional Variant Rule Freebie on the FGU site. Those who have not really should, it is a worthy read, and makes many interesting points.

Of course you are welcome to express opinions here, that is the very nature of a forum. And I have great respect for Polarboy's encyclopedic knowledge of V&V - indeed he has corrected me on several occasions.

My concern is that you may have seen my post as something it is not. That misunderstanding has caused friction between us in the past, and I have no desire to go down that path again.  I was going to answer your question, but I wanted to do some research first. As it turns out, Phrennzy answered the question more eloquently than I could have, so I let it stand.

It was not my intention to upset or offend you, and if I have, I am truly sorry.

Edited:

...huh... I did not think of that. Weird what happens when Yad looks up from the tablet... I may have to update my thoughts on this matter, but only in the way villains use traps, not how traps basically function.

AlabasterKnight: It did not occur to me until after my post that in my effort to avoid friction on this subject, I may have made you feel that I was excluding you from the conversation. Please accept my apologies for that. You are a valued contributor to FGU, and it was not my intent to alienate you.

Per your question: As written, the V&V revised edition (VV2) rules do not specify "Lethality" or "Difficulty" ratings, but do give guidance to players and GM's that various rolls may be modified to reflect the relative difficulty of accomplishing a given task. Thus falling off a log may be a simple save vs Agility, while falling off a slippery log may be a save vs AGL-5. Also an attack that does 1d20 damage, could be seen as being more lethal than an attack doing 1d6 damage.

I am very comfortable with a trap being an "animated servant" of sorts and thus being limited to experience level 4 for combat purposes. It is, in my opinion, in the spirit of the written rules (since it was written into a V&V source book by Mr. Herman), and whenever possible I attempt to work within the spirit of the rules.

I am concerned that if V&V contributors state that traps can be of varying EXP levels, then it's a very short step to "animated servants" can be different exp levels, then on to "animals" and other nonsentients. I think a less-slippery-slope solution is to simply assign modifiers to the % to detect hidden/danger rolls, and another modifier to the trap's to-hit value (or accuracy).

I understand that you (Alabasterknight, and anyone else reading this) may feel differently on this subject, and should you wish to state your opinion in this forum, you are welcomed to do so. As stated before, however, I have no desire to enter into another unfortunate discussion resembling one already documented on this forum.

Interesting timing on that comment, Klystron... I just finished revising my previous document to include (mostly) what you just said.

Edited:


This is actually a pretty interesting conversation. It turns out that traps are not at all common in V&V. Of course, I should have realized that since I have all the legacy adventures and only DNAgents has "TRAPS" called out as "Traps". Assassin has a srota-trap, but it's more like an automated anti-aircraft gun.

Cool beans, guys.

Edited:

Thanks. Revised with correction. 

OK. It's Saturday, and I have decided that "Saturday" is a good day for posting weirdness.

Here is some more of my thoughts on what can be done in V&V. This week I'll be blathering on about Saving throws.

I know this has been something of a "Hot Button" topic in the past, but I hope it does not explode this time. Just remember, this is one nerd's opinion, not a house rule, variant rule, optional rule or anything else, it's just the way I handle some stuff in the game.
Edited:

Edited:

Y'know... this little article got me thinking (I normally have odd thoughts a few days after I finish writing something).
The sample character in this document, Ninjoid, has an Agility of 120.

From the get-go, he has an initiative roll of 121-130 which translates to 9 possible actions per turn, which is not bad at all.
He also has a +17 to all to-hit rolls, and +19 to all damage, again, not bad.
Assuming he's average in all other respects (150 lb, S, E, and I all 10), this guy would have 150 power, 37 hit points, and 140 movement points (about 32 mph), and 20-23 damage in basic hand-to-hand combat (with a HtH basic to hit of 22 or less on 1d20 - basically guaranteed).

Don't forget that he evades at 1/10th his power, so early on he would evade and be at -15 to be hit (good luck with that). And with 150 power, he could roll with up to 15 damage (if anyone managed to hit him), and could make 9 actions per turn for 9 turns in a row before fatiguing himself.

Give the dude a rifle, and he has a range of 1,400" (1.3 miles), with a base to hit of 24 or less... well, 18 or less out at max range.

All those benefits seem like a pretty fair trade for the chance of failing an AGL save once in 20 attempts.

Edited:

Edited:

Yeah, it's ridiculously high Agility. But the issue is that a few people see the 5% fail as a punishment inflicted upon characters with super-high Basic Characteristics. What I am attempting to point out here is that there are ways around this, and the character does get a lot of bonuses to offset the 1:20 chance of a failed save. I went crazy on the Agility to help prove the point.

I don't see the save problem as a big issue - there are times when you roll the dice, and times when you don't. I normally save the dice for important events, and leave mundane events up to role-play.

Ninjoid might make a nice Villain, but not a really fun Player-Character.

Also, not a bad house rule.

Ironnerd wrote on Apr 9^th, 2015 at 5:56pm:


I think it's funny that your POV on the game and its mechanics has you working very hard to take opinions you don't agree with to task. It's strange to use the scope of a character's ability scores as a quid pro quo to support an argument that in your doc you use to create a straw man with a ridiculously high score to defeat the point.

If the difficulty for the save is consistent and based on the complexity of the thing being saved against, then the % to fail means different things to each character. If the same modifiers (minus whatever) are applied after the result rolled in the shortened range (d20), you have no way to be either consistent or fair.

So then why have the ability to go to 90s on a chart, regularly into the 30s and even 40s, if you're going to cut the legs off of everything above 20? What other game has ever given charts and calcs for characteristics in a percentile range but then used a d20 for tests against those? That many authors place multipliers and change formulas back and forth to d100 saves is just another bit of evidence that the d20 save probably wasn't a good solution in the first place.

That's the core of why anyone might have heartburn about the 5%. Why don't you actually address how to make high characteristics count - in saves - which is really the topic, instead of saying that since high values might impart other advantages that it's okay if they don't count for saves?

?

Respectfully.

I think there's an easy solution to the 'problem', even though it's not one I've incorporated (yet) in my game.

I think it was Imaginos who first posted it (at least that I remember).  You make a d20 save against the relevant Basic Characteristic, but then a roll of a 20 isn't an automatic failure.

If a character with a BC higher than 20 rolls a 20, they then roll a second d20 and add what they get on that roll to the first roll.

Example: Quickness Lad has an Agility of 37.  The GM tells him to save vs. Agility.  QL rolls a 20, and - since his A is higher than 20 - he then rolls a second die, getting a 16.  Since his total (20+16=36) is lower than his A of 37, he still succeeds!

This method is quick, easy, elegant, and gives a nice way to 'reward' those characters with high stats, while still preserving most of the original rules.

Nevermind - I'm not trying to belittle you. Sorry you take it that way. See, I don't think what I posted in the link is quite there yet either. But que sera sera.

FWIW saves in my games are so rare as to be seen about as often as unicorns (except perhaps for saves as specified to resist the various Powers, as spelled out in the rules).

Oh, and I agree with you about actually liking the 5% chance of failure.  I like that there's a chance of failure, even for the truly super.

The way I play or GM is giving the players the benefit of the doubt when the situation calls for it, and more so for role play opportunity. I don't use critical successes, hits, misses or failures. I'm a big proponent of impartiality, and in V&V that can be very difficult to achieve.

Lethality or difficulty is a side effect of experience level; I consider the cause and/or skill of the manufacturer of the circumstance. If a 15th level chemist makes a deadly poison gas to the best of his knowledge, his toxin is likely more lethal than a 2nd Level chemist. When presenting that to the players, they always have a chance to succeed or fail based on their score, but the scale is based on the real points they have accumulated in that score. If there is a modifier to the difficulty/lethality, it is applied prior to the calculation and I always do saves as percentages. As they level up, they might acquire more points in a given score.

At my table, it is nice that there are other results to gaining a higher score, like HPs, move, Power, etc., but those are separate from the issue, not acceptable advantages to overlook what the player has earned and added to their sheet to make a difference in the outcome. To be clear, it's not just saves, it's any non-power skill/feat/task/insert-what-you-call-it-here rolls.

Although I love RPGs, I acknowledge that dice are important, not the last word, but means to some ends. So I certainly take care to not make it a game of 'dice', but it is a game and significantly a game that uses and relies on die rolls. There are some common things that go with rules, mechanics, etc., that make sense. One is a single die roll for a single task and then role play the result.

FWIW, This isn't a dig on anybody, but something to clear up the perception of my view.

I have some water to drink, thank you for the well wishing.

I am back to contributing to FGU for the V&V line - although on a rather limited basis. I currently have one adventure out for art, and nothing else planned.

Since I am once again working for FGU, I will no longer be posting in 'House of Ideas', or reading posts in this area of the forum, except for THIS ONE. I figure I made the thing, I ought to be able to look at it...