One more thing, before I go. Given how consistently the game uses Charisma as Will, it would have been nice, really nice, if that was directly mentioned in the rules. Not something we have to piece together to fully infer. The rules, I have 'em on hand, mention:  a personal "aura" (to win friend and influence people) plus the degree to which they behave according to the Side they are on (Good or Evil). Later on, Charisma expands to include the character's public image.

That sounds like a standard definition of Charisma to me, but not a definition of Will. And don't try tellin' me that it is.

Thanks, Superfriend, with all caveats duly noted.
Have you seen the thread on superhero cartoons (assuming you like the Superfriends) called 'Kick Ass Toons?'
It's in the Hero Talk forum.

DSumner, would love to see that house rule. Thanks

Here's a question I'd like to put on the floor.

Seein' how it is clear that Charisma in a by-the-book game of V&V also includes a mental resistance that most other games do not treat as part of charisma (and that don't match no dictionary definition of the term), what might have been a better term for the ability that includes both sets of traits?

In Living Legends, Jeff Dee introduces the term Cool instead of Charisma. But yo, I'm not a big fan of Arthur Fonzerelli. Any other ideas on what might have worked?

And don't simply respond to the question by sayin' that you're okay with the term Charisma. I'm not tellin' no one to change the name. That's not the question on the table, my friends. So again: What would have been a term that would have avoided the "charisma" confusion at the start?

That fact that it's confusing is a given. Or else we wouldn't have had to have this discussion today!

It still seems to me that while the V&V rules as written clearly lump the concepts of Will and Charisma together as Charisma, there are enough reasons to treat them as distinct things that can (and often do) vary independently.  I think that having a high degree of internal mental/social/spiritual fortitude equates with having a high degree of external mental/social/spiritual effect.  I think that it is certainly possible to rationalize a number of characters for which these things differ in the existing set of rules, I think that the game is better served and character concepts better articulated by keeping them distinct.

I don't like the will stat for one reason, roleplay.   suppose you have a stinky will power score as a hero?  oops no i just dont think i could gointo that burning building... my will is only an 8. 

things like that are something that the player should control not the stat...

seperating body from mind also leads to the need for for hit points and mind points.

endurance could easily take the place of will or power points for that matter.

SuperFriend wrote on Aug 25^th, 2009 at 3:35am:


If we agree that Charisma is NOT appearance, then what attracts you to others and gives that good reaction roll?
I would argue strength of personality, as mentioned in the first post of this thread:
In the real world, people that are leaders (higher Cha) are usually confident and self assured (higher Will).
Who gets a good reaction from a weak-willed type? Once Bill Clinton's low will was made public, his reaction roll from most folks was negatively affected.

In the comics, I think heroes with the power, Willpower, that are low in Charisma are in the minority.
It's more common that superheroes with high Will, as evidenced by the power Willpower, have high Charismas.

Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 11^th, 2009 at 10:12pm:


I realized that no one bothered to get back to this question. Here's my suggestion, which doesn't involve reworking anything or any hard work.

If you want to add a three-dimensional quality to a campaign by separating WILL from CHARISMA reactions, then just treat them as separate 3d6 abilities: WILL and RESPECT (or popularity or whatever you want to call it).

You don't have to modify any charts.

Just use WILL for all of the powers and combat table adjustments that currently use Charisma, and use RESPECT for the morale/reaction rolls.

Neither WILL nor RESPECT (or whatever you call them) plays into movement rate or power points or anything else. They simply divide what's currently covered by Charisma into two separate attributes in case you'd like them to work that way in a campaign.

That way you can have a character's RESPECT/notoriety go up or down by their perceived actions/reputation without their WILL changing.

If someone is framed for a crime, their Will stat stays the same but their RESPECT stat might go down.

Giving away a ton of money to charity or making public appearances might increase RESPECT/Charisma (as outlined in the rules) without giving someone any WILL adjustments.

It also helps if a hero like Captain America goes under cover as Nomad (for example). Steve Rogers has the same WILL stat either way, but a different RESECT/Popularity stat.

It also helps with secret identities. Tony Stark has a 3d6 RESPECT score, but as Iron Man he has earned much higher RESPECT. That said, his WILL stat is the same in both cases.

And when he lends his armor to someone else, that person has Iron Man's RESPECT score (at least among strangers), but their own WILL score. Just like in the comics--and very simple to use in the game, if you choose.

If a character switches sides, like Quicksilver or Prince Namor, his WILL stat might stay the same but his RESPECT score will go all over the place.

As far as house rules are concerned, this one is a breeze.

I tend to agree that a stat called Will should affect hit points and power points.

When you roll Heightened Charisma does the player choose if he wants Heightened Will or Respect?

Thanks for the follow up.

It's funny cuz I was always okay w/there bein' no Will stat in V&V until I started following; this thread.