Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10^th, 2009 at 9:53am:


I tend to disagree.

Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10^th, 2009 at 9:53am:


This seems to me to be unsupported.  Will doesn't imply confidence or self-assurance, for one thing.  And the example of Bill Clinton, an extremely charismatic man and leader of the free world demonstrating dubious Will in not resisting the temptation to womanize, even at the risk of great personal cost.

Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10^th, 2009 at 9:53am:


There are also plenty of examples where they don't.  Guy Gardner, for example, being a classic high Will, low Charisma type.  In general, characters that are largely mentally based, you can make arguments for *all* of those features to be high.  There will certainly be a high incidence of characters with both Charisma and Will being rated highly.  But they are still distinct (both can be high, but not necessarily the same) and there are still significant counter-examples.  Not to mention that the list provided is hardly uncontroversial.

Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10^th, 2009 at 9:53am:


Again, I think your examples are debatable and hardly conclusive.  There are also numerous counter-examples as well.  And lastly, having two distinct characteristics that covary is hardly an argument for blending them.  Your logic lends itself to the blending of Strength and Endurance, for example. 

Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10^th, 2009 at 9:53am:


Right.  And?  That's a really old confusion that I don't see people make anymore.  I don't see anyone conflating Charisma with Appearance.

Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10^th, 2009 at 9:53am:


And thus, many folks have added a Will stat -- the above is kind of circular, dude.  Of course, the game as written doesn't have a will stat.  That same power list *does* contain Willpower, though, doesn't it?  That's still recognized by the authors of the game as distinct.

Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10^th, 2009 at 9:53am:


Right.  Because the argument for those that include a Will stat is that it deserves to be included, despite being missing in the original game.

Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10^th, 2009 at 9:53am:


You seem to be arguing against a point nobody is making.  Sure, the game as written may lump Will into Charisma.  That in no way implies that there isn't a good reason to make it a distinct characteristic.

Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10^th, 2009 at 9:53am:


It also makes sense if you see Charisma as your ability to exert force in a mental/social milieu, sort of a mental Strength -- Will would be more analogous to mental Endurance.  At least, that's how it works in my house-rule.

Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10^th, 2009 at 9:53am:


Can you support this contention?  And of course it makes sense to use Charisma -- you're coercing answers out of the universe. 

Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10^th, 2009 at 9:53am:


Again, you're arguing beside the point -- as I said, just because the rules as written sometimes treat Charisma as some form of Will, it doesn't mean it works well or shouldn't be house-ruled.

Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10^th, 2009 at 9:53am:


Dude, you persist in being circular -- it is well known that V&V as originally written doesn't have a Will stat.  Continuing to point at how it isn't in the game is kind of pointless.  And actually, charisma is *often* used as a defining characteristic for telepathy.  It certainly is in various iterations of d20 and d20 Modern -- in the WotC psionics rules, in Steve Kenson's psychic rules.  You're making circular (and incorrect) presumptions without offering support or evidence.

Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10^th, 2009 at 9:53am:


Right -- thus overloading and muddying the Charisma stat, which is why many use a Will stat, so that that distinct dimension of a character can be modeled distinctly.

Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10^th, 2009 at 9:53am:


Many, many characters endure more damage and take more punishment by sheer willpower.  It happens *often* in comics, so often to be a trope of the genre.  Will would absolutely contribute to hit points.

Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10^th, 2009 at 9:53am:


Because the game as written only *has* Int and Charisma.  What else are they going to use?

Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10^th, 2009 at 9:53am:


Any stat can increase over time if you train it.  This seems to be a non-point.

Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10^th, 2009 at 9:53am:


Not really -- while you can point to a number of characters with high rankings in both, there are plenty of characters who aren't terribly charismatic who have high Wills.  Lumping them together makes no sense.  Most of the X-Men, for example, have exceptional Wills -- they are strong-willed and minded, partially by training and partially due to their status as outsiders.  But they do not all have a high Charisma.   

Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 10^th, 2009 at 9:53am:


Mashing Will into Charisma isn't necessary to keep it from being a dump-stat.  The way my house ruled version of the stats work is that you have two scopes:  the physical and mental/social and three axes of interaction -- effect, resistance and control.  Strength and Charisma are the (respectively) physical and mental/social effect-causing stats, Endurance and Will are the physical and mental/social resistance stats and Agility and Intelligence are the physical and mental/social control/adeptness stats.  It works well, it allows for good modeling of existing characters, as well as good, varied ground for creating new ones.  Personally, I see lots of good reasons to have Will as a distinct stat.

My my my.
What a well mannered, respectful, normal, sane, well adjusted human being we have here.

Who would ever suspect the truth?

Sadly, I've seen the truth and have no interest in playing along with the deeply demented psychodrama.
I mean, internet flame wars? Really?

Anyone without a secret agenda have any thoughts about the above? 

DF, I invited Chimera over here. I don't always agree with his views, so that shouldn't matter. He's a long time V&V gamer, who's got some really great ideas, and I for one would like to hear them, just as I'd like to hear what anyone decides to post. Just because i don't see eye to eye, with someone, shouldn't stop me from being able to have conversation with them, about a subject we both enjoy.

While I'm not the owner or a mod, I'd like to ask that any personal beefs guys may, or may not have with one another be left at the door, or taken to PMs. I think everyone here would really like this board to stay strictly about the gaming. So gents, how about we get back to the original topic? Sound fair to everyone?  If anyone feels I've been out of line, shoot me a PM, and we can take it up there. I'll now step down off my soapbox, and return you to your original discussion.

It's only a dump stat if you let it be.  It's as much (or more) on the GM as it is on the players.  If there is no utility or advantage to it, they have every reason to treat it as a dump stat.  It's up to the GM to make sure that it remains valuable.

Ok, back to Charisma / Will:

Here's a house rule I use to help make Charisma more useful, inspired by Fear Rolls from Call of Cthulhu.

Morale Checks/Cool Rolls:

When something really bad or insane happens (like the arrival of Galactus), a character rolls one d20 against their Cool (Charisma + 1/2 their level) to see if they lose their cool.

If the roll is equal to or lower than their Cool, they keep calm.
If it’s higher than their Cool then they suffer a -1 penalty per point over their score on every roll. Every turn, this modifier is lessened by one point (So it takes 8 turns to wear away a -8).

The GM may add modifications to Cool, depending on the direness of the situation.

Comic book examples:
-Batman has a skill called Intimidation. If he succeeds on his skill, he can force Cool rolls on opponents. Low-Charisma, low level goons get so scared by Batman that they can’t hit him with machine guns.

-Early Wonder Man freezes up when faced with the all-powerful Count Nefaria.

Also, a person can calm others. By taking an action to talk (or yell or bark orders) they can raise everyone else's Cool score by their cool roll reaction modifier, to talk them down from their state of panic, etc. (Thereby quickening the duration of the negative modifiers).

Comic book example:
-Captain America’s speechifying to WW2 infantrymen or low-level Avengers, like Wonder Man.

Game notes: I don't force Cool Rolls from events often. And once the PCs are over 4th level, they'll make their rolls most of the time anyway, which makes sense.

Yes, lets keep this a pretty much bicker free place.   I used to argue on the internet all the time and all it did was make me angry.  And I didn't get superstrength when I was angry.


Back to the point of this thread, I added a will stat to the game.  I think its the missing stat.   I use the intellegence mod for hits, and then I use the to hit and dam mod of aglity.  When you want something and are determined to get it,  you make it happen.

I played it twice so far and its going ok.    It really adds a dimension to the game with out changing it so much.  Its still in the play testing game.

Dudes and dudettes! We all know that the V&V rules treat Charisma as Will. If you like it that way, keep it that way. If you don't, then add a sixth ability (which is common in many other games).

Heck, the Marvel and DC games both made clear that psychic resistance was not the same as popularity or leadership or influence over others. True dat!

What's the big deal if other people have different opinions? Going on and on ain't convincing anybody. And yo, statements about archenemies and agendas and what-nots seem to have me convinced that, at least on friendly forums, unbridled Will-fullness ain't necessarily a sign of Charisma. Sometimes they can be opposites.

Isn't it ironic, don't you think? (Alanis Morissette)

So be kind, and dont lose your mind. (from the Rent soundtrack)

Yes, the flexibility of V&V is its greatest asset.  The rules actualy tell you to change the rules if you need to.

Ironically, this also cost me a player as he was too uptight to play in a game that didn't itemize everything.  He would make sheets for everything, and then catorgorise the sheets and then  sort the sheets...

dsumner wrote on Jun 10^th, 2009 at 11:34pm:


He freaked out because I refused to write out a list of potential skills that one could get.  I told him," think of a skill you want, and in two seconds we can make the rules."  This was not enough for him.

Modok, the big-headed dude who fought the Hulk and took over AIM in Marvel Comics back in the day. Now there's a fella with a lot of Will--and a lot of nerve!

Lookin' for lot-sa will? How about my buddies on Earth 2?

We got Huntress
We got grownup Robin (he's grittier, and almost prettier than Dick Grayson of Earth I)
We got Wild Cat
We got Hour Man (for short-amounts of time)
We got Dr. Midnight

Not sure about Star Spangled Kid. He's got charm, though. Not sure about will.

And in his own special universe, we got Ray Palmer. He may be small, but he ain't weak. Hank Pym would love to have one-half of this guy's determination.

SuperFriend wrote on Jun 10^th, 2009 at 11:11pm:


See? What a magnificent frame job.
Truly I have an arch-nemesis worthy of the name!

Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 11^th, 2009 at 9:25am:


That's a bit of a subjective call, wouldn't you say?

Let's look at the list of characters mentioned in those posts:

Batman (Bruce Wayne) - yes, absolutely, high Will, high Cha.

Nightwing (but he's the Batman now) - yup, less so than Bruce, but both still high.  Mind you, I'd put his Cha a bit higher than his Will, while I'd do the reverse with Bruce.

Robin (Tim Drake) - highly debatable.  His Charisma in particular shows promise, but he's definitely got a higher Will than Charisma.

Blue Beetle (as in Ted Kord) - Not the most Charismatic hero in the world, here, folks. 

Green Lantern (all of them, as their rings are fueled by Willpower) -- Hal and John definitely have high Charisma and Will.  And yes, all the GLs will have a high Will.  But Guy Gardner practically defines low Charisma.  Likewise, Kyle is definitely nowhere near as charismatic as he is willful.  There are numerous GLs that lack charisma.

Wolverine -- high Will, low or moderate Charisma.

Wonderwoman -- yes, high both, for sure.

Superman -- yes, both high for sure.

Capt. America -- yes, both high for sure.

Professor X -- high Will, absolutely, but Charisma?  Not nearly as much.  He fails almost every time he tries to take direct control of the X-Men.  He moves people with psychic power, not force of personality.  He's actually a bit of a weirdo.

Dr. Strange -- I would argue a case similar to Xavier's here.

Vril Drox (of LEGION/REBELS) -- just because he was nominally the boss, it doesn't mean he has Charisma.  Almost universally disliked and disrespected.

Brainiac 5 (of the Legion of Super Heroes) -- highish Will, but Charisma?  N'uh uh.  High Int though, for sure.

Dr. Doom (he's one determined SOB) -- agreed
Apocalypse -- not so sure about the Charisma here -- he bullies, he doesn't lead.

Lex Luthor -- agreed
the various Brainiacs -- high Will, not Charisma.

Deathstroke: The Terminator -- agreed, high Will and Charisma.

Black Bolt -- yes, high in both.

the Punisher and the Spirit. -- The Spirit?  I couldn't say.  But the Punisher is definitely a case of high Will and low Charisma.

Modok -- high Will, miserably low Charisma -- psychic bully, not a leader, not charming, not much of anything except creepy.

Huntress - yes, both relatively high.
Robin - likewise.
Wild Cat - indeed.
Hour Man - he's been shown to have high Will, but not especially high Charisma.
Dr. Midnight -- arguable on both.  Certainly not weak willed, nor wallpaper.

Star Spangled Kid. He's got charm, though. Not sure about will.  -- I would agree, more charming than willful.

Ray Palmer. A decent Will, but not an especially high one.  Likewise with Charisma.

Martian Manhunter -- both, in spades.

Hawkwoman -- I'm not seeing the argument for Charisma here.

So, respectfully, I disagree with your assessment.

I've gotta agree with Chim on this one. A high Charisma, does not equate to a strong will. If you want a real life example, look at the Navy SEALs. These guys have VERY strong wills, but some of the ones I know are the biggest jackasses I've ever met.

dsumner wrote on Jun 11^th, 2009 at 8:14pm:


This must be the post for which you felt obliged to issue a public apology.


Seriously, I'm a purist. Or maybe just lazy.
But I can cover it off easy enough with standard powers and weaknesses.
Your SEALs either have low Charisma/Will (plus the skill Willpower) or they have high Charisma/Will and a Psych-based Weakness. Or two.


DSumner, John or SF: have you laid out the Will stat somewhere on the site? Sounds like a lot of work. New hit mods (I imagine), modifications to a dozen super power descriptions. Does it play into power points? Movement rates? Carry capacity?
Lay it on me, please.

Caveat! That said, I have nuthin' against anyone who uses a house rule to add Mr. Will to the game. Both Marvel and DC's own games made sure to cover it on its own terms, not the same. Word up.

Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 11^th, 2009 at 10:12pm:


No worries, I've always felt that Willpower was a stat that should have been added to the game. But I'm not going to cry over it. I've played using CHR for years, and if that's what people want, I'm good with it.

Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 11^th, 2009 at 10:12pm:


I've got my take written up as a house rule, I'll post it here if you're interested.

They stated that Charisma, was basically a combination of things, to include your strength of conviction and self confidence (which would cover your will), but I'd still would have preferred it will to be separate stat. 

dsumner wrote on Jun 11^th, 2009 at 10:45pm:


Even though Superfriend made a good point,  I am with DSumner on this one.

Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 11^th, 2009 at 11:14pm:


I grew up on the Superfriends. So when I saw the Hall of Justice at the top of this site, I had to join! Plus, the Earth 2 Justice Society rules!

I think you could rename the Charisma stat 'Will,' for the reasons outlined in my the post of this thread.

We'll talk Superfriends over in 'Kick Ass Toons.'

Quote:

Thank you, my brother (and for your earlier assessment about Modok and many of my favorite DC heroes). Changin' the name to Will solves half of the problem (w/all due respect to Foom, M.D.). It still leaves us hangin' since Will ain't the same as personal magnetism or reputation.

If I ever play again, here’s what I might do: Keep the game basically as is, but split Charisma down in two.

This will not require major reworking. It will make it easier to play. The reaction rolls would go w/Charisma. In other words, that part would stay.

But all of the defenses and power adjustments that Charisma now does, that the good doctor so clearly spelled out, would get w/Will.

Neither ability would adjust hit points or power points, so I could still use all of my favorite modules.

This would not be complicated at all. This has been a most satisfying experience!

Doctor Foom wrote on Jun 12^th, 2009 at 9:44am:


Here's a question fer the good doctor, how do you use Reaction Modification when Charisma = Will. Truth be told, having high willpower doesn't inherently make people treat ya better or like ya any better. Not even in the comics.

I wunder why D&D (the grandad of V&V) had Wisdom and Charisma separated. The game made it pretty clear that Charisma wasn't appearance (as evidenced by Hitler bein' listed as an evil example of 18+ charisma in the early DM guide), but made little no correlation between the two stats--except that druids and paladins needed high scores in them both. (But regular clerics wuz off the hook.)

I use Will for my game.  Will gives you the same hit modifier as intellegence does, and it gives you the same to hit and damage bonus as aglity.   You can focus more on your target and succeed more often if your mind is set.  And you can be more intense.

Will adds to your power score. 

So all in all it doesn't change that much for most PC's or NPC's.  On average it gives most people a bonus ten power and maybe a +1 damage modifier.   

Willpower is the name of the superpower, will is the name of the attribute.

Doctor Foom wrote on Sep 5^th, 2009 at 11:10am:

I have been compiling all the new powers I, and others, have made up.  I am someday going to make up a new chart to roll to get powers at character creation.   As of now, I am playing with this rule.  At start up, a player rolls 1d6 powers gets one weakness and then gets to pick one power.  They can pick an additional power but I get to pick their additional weakness.   This way they can pick any power, including heightened will, or the numerous wildcard powers can cover that.   Until I get off my lazy ass and make that new chart.

For what it's worth, in pulling out my V&V-Champions conversion chart tonight, one of the first things that jumped out was that V&V's charisma = Champions' ego (i.e. strength of will).