I'm a stickler to the origin table in the rulebook when it comes to assigning Heightened Intelligence (and other exceptional abilities).

For all their brainpower, men such as Tony Stark, Henry Pym, and Victor von Doom have Heightened Intelligence A instead of B.

These geniuses had extraordinary intellects before gaining their superhuman powers and devices, and mystical forces and mutations did not help them tap into extra brainpower.

With characters like Moondragon and Dr. Strange, there's a case to be made for Heightened Intellignece B, due to their metaphysical origins (the Psionics/Magic table). With Prof. X, as well, because he is a psionic mutant, although type A still might apply in each of these cases. We'd have to see what happens when Xavier loses his mutant powers to know for sure.

There's no shame in Heightened Intelligence A. It's an extradinary skill (natural aptitude/talent/training) available to a small percentage of standard homo sapiens.

In the works of Arthur Conan Dolyle, Sherlock Holmes and Professor Moriarty would follow suit, along with Professor Challenger.

From history, Leonardo daVinci, Thomas Edison, and Albert Einstein are some of the many contenders.

Whether the score is a 3 or a 30, Heightened Intelligence B requires a metaphysical/mystical origin from the Psionics/Magic table, a Device, Magic item, or a a physical mutation/alteration from the Powers table. The Leader is one of the most obvious examples here.

When all's said and done, there's something to be said for making the A-list.

Good take on the power. I loved this post.

Interesting post.

If Heightened Intelligence A came from the Skills table, that means it was a learned or trained ability; a skill.

So were Tony Stark, Henry Pym, Victor von Doom, Sherlock Holmes, Professor Moriarty, Leonardo daVinci, Thomas Edison, and Albert Einstein (and Reed Richards for that matter) exceptionally bright children, or were they average intelligence at birth and then became geniuses later?

If it's the former, it argues the case for Heightened Intelligence B. 'Born with it' speaks to an inherent condition, similar to a mutation, more than a learned skill, no?

eLock wrote on Oct 24^th, 2009 at 3:57pm:


Then do you disagree with the position that you must train to acquire a Skill?

I could see daVinci as someone who was born different, with Heightened Intelligence B.
Mozart was a child prodigy, I could see something there as well.

eLock wrote on Oct 24^th, 2009 at 4:29pm:


Sure, but I don't have to tell you that V&V is designed to simulate comics, not the real world.

In the real world, I think child prodigies are born brilliant, which is what enables them to begin intense training earlier than normal. If I had to apply V&V to the real world, I guess I'd call that Heightened Intelligence B (an "innate" ability; born with it) followed by training in skills (small "s", like Music for Mozart or Mathematics or Langauges for another genius.)

One could argue that the real-world prodigy rolled a natural 18 on 3d6 for Intelligence. Then trained up his Intelligence another 2d10 through study. But in the real world, IQ isn't supposed to change as one ages. You can't increase your Intelligence. You would learn skills (small "s") and acquire knowledge. So Heightened Intelligence A as a Skill/learned thing can't ever equate to reality, imho.

But in comic books, people are born with Cosmic Awareness and Telepathy and Heightened Intelligence B at an alarming rate. Superpowers from the "Powers" chart in V&V are called "innate super abilities." I don't know if you need to be a full blown Mutant to have been born a genius in a comic book or in V&V.

There are an amazing number of geniuses in comics. So it's hard for me to believe a game system designed to simulate comics would only have one way to gain Heightened Intelligence A (the Skill chart) and four charts to give Heightened Intelligence B, if the majority of comic book geniuses have Heightened Intelligence A. It wouldn't simulate comics very accurately.

But again, really interesting subject. I appreciate your perspective and your thoughtful posts. Thanks.

Polarboy, or anyone who knows the modules: Is there a pattern of how Heightened Intelligence A and B are used in regards to character origins? Thanks!

John wrote on Oct 25^th, 2009 at 7:03pm:

Nice summary. That's how we always read the charts too.


Doctor Foom wrote on Oct 25^th, 2009 at 3:46pm:

There's no discernable pattern, as so many of the published characters list heightened abilities without specifying A or B--and the origin/background section for many of these characters is ambiguous.

For starters, Manta-Man from Crisis at Crusader Citadel is 6th level with Intelligence: 26. That is impossible in standard game terms without giving him heightened intelligence (which he doesn't have). And the module doesn't reveal how his score got so high.


Doctor Foom wrote on Oct 25^th, 2009 at 3:46pm:

Years of scientific research shows that real-world IQ scores, like almost all human ability, definitely can increase through training and practice. The notion that IQ "isn't supposed to change as one ages" was debunked. (This is one of my areas of study.)


Doctor Foom wrote on Oct 25^th, 2009 at 3:46pm:

The game doesn't require any degree of mutation to be born a genius because a genius-level IQ is possible by rolling 3d6.

Examples:

In Opponents Unlimited, electronics expert George Ronky has an Intelligence of 17 and is described as an "genius." ... He is a ready source of repair for broken hero (and villain) devices.

Organized Crimes tells us that a robotics expert with 18 Intelligence (54% inventing chance) was smart enough to build a robotic duplicate of Troy Harrow. The invented Robotic Body has 100% human appearance, weight x 2, Strength + 12, 45% internal repair in 3 turns (once per day), and built-in Life-Support: PR = 1 per hour, to keep Troy's brain alive inside.


Doctor Foom wrote on Oct 25^th, 2009 at 3:46pm:

Comments in the "What changes would you make to V&V" thread demonstrate that results from the random charts in the rulebook don't always match the distribution of heightened abilities that many V&V players see in comics.

http://www.villainsandvigilantesforum.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1253221207/4...

Three of the five villains in Battle Above the Earth each have Heightened Intelligence A, along with exceptionally different power/device/item/skill/psionics sets.

The A-version of intelligence does make a stamp in the published sources.

Thanks Polarboy. I always thought Manta Man's write up had a typo that omitted his Heightened Intelligence.

polarboy wrote on Oct 26^th, 2009 at 3:50am:


Really? You've just raised my IQ by teaching me that.
Seriously, that's fascinating. What level of plasticity in indicated?

Reed richards would have been born with Ht int A but His mutation added Ht Int B and that is why he is the smartest man in the world.  I remember reading that his flexibility was also extended to his thinking. That his Brain worked different than others.

I should also point out that it is possible to roll two ht int A's in the case of people like einstien.

eLock wrote on Oct 27^th, 2009 at 11:21am:


Neither do I. 
I see them as having been 'born with it.' Which is better met by the definition of "Powers" (an innate ability) over "Skills" (a learned ability). That's all. Thanks again.

Hey Harkker and Majestic: Great points about multiplying A's to get a stat worthy of a Reed Richards.

Polarboy, is real-world IQ elastic enough that one can study and train enough to double their IQ? Thanks.

Since I was the one who started this thread, I thought I might spend some time using my own intelligence to run some numbers.

In game terms, the average character begins with an Intelligence of 10.5 (rolling 3d6).

In game terms, Heightened Intelligence A yields an average bonus of 11 (rolling 2d10).

10.5 + 11 = 21.5.
That translates to an IQ score of 215, based on the rulebook guidelines. In the real world, there are adults with scores into the 220s. Experts estimate that some historical geniuses, including daVinci, may have had IQs around 220 as well. So the baseline results for Heightened Intelligence A actually fit real people.

The rulebook describes POWERS as "innate super abilities." The operative word here is super. In the Crusader module, Enforcer was not born with Force Fields; Laserfire was not born with Flame Powers or Light Control. Even within the modules, those born with their POWERS are probably in the minority.

Many of the non-mutant heroes created by Stan "the man" Lee and Jack "king" Kirby have "innate super abilities" listed on the V&V POWERS table. Yet Benjamin Grimm was not born with his "innate" orange armor. When they were creating V&V, Jeff Dee and Jack Herman clearly did not intend for us to draw that conclusion.

That means that the word innate above the V&V POWERS table is not synonymous with inborn (dictionary definitions aside). Rather, innate in this context distinguishes these super powers from devices, magic items, magic/psionics, and extraordinary learned skills.

Comics and the game show us that characters might be born with super POWERS from this table (like the mutant Angel from the X-Men has wings) or they might gain superhuman powers from this table (like Dreamweaver of the Crusaders gains invisibility, etc.).

Since we have to take a loose definition to the word innate, in order for comics and V&V to make sense, a loose definition to the word learned is only fair; even people born extraordinarily gifted must learn. In fact, research shows that perhaps half of all human intelligence is learned; not predetermined at birth.

In game terms, the average character begins with an Intelligence of 10.5 (3d6).

In game terms, Heightened Intelligence B gives an average bonus of 16.5 (3d10).

10.5 + 16.5 = 27.
That translates to a 270 IQ. And that score is a good 40 points higher than the highest recorded IQ score.  In other words, the default results of this super ability do not describe any real people.

Mozart is no exception. Was he a genius? Yes! Experts who've tried to estimate his IQ place it somewhere between 165 and 175 (about a 17 intelligence in game terms).

You don't need heightened intelligence to be a Mozart!

Now that, in itself, is inspiring!

Excelsior!

eLock wrote on Oct 29^th, 2009 at 4:02am:


Good stuff here, eLock (and quite interesting)!

As for Intelligence in V&V equaling IQ, I don't think it's spelled out that clearly.  I think there's a reference to Intelligence being one's innate knowledge, IQ, and the like, but isn't that formula (I=IQ) from some other game? (D&D perhaps?)

eLock wrote on Oct 29^th, 2009 at 4:02am:


I guess I'm just a purist.
Happy to agree to disagree. 

John wrote on Oct 29^th, 2009 at 9:21pm:


LOL John, you crack me up! From the stuff you and Oni post, you guys must have a blast!

eLock wrote on Oct 29^th, 2009 at 4:39pm:


Thanks so much, eLock!   

As for the IQ thing, that makes sense.  I just wasn't sure if there was anything "official" on it (I think the rulebook references "IQ" a couple of times, which certainly hints at it).

It certainly has been an active and well-discussed thread!

Doctor Foom wrote on Oct 30^th, 2009 at 6:56pm:


Hey, no joke - our (arguably) most powerful PC among the Guardians right now (Neutron) has Animal Plant Powers, and he picked:

Animal/Plant Powers: Mammal; Human.

I kid you not.   

eLock wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2009 at 7:04pm:

I said it before, and I will say it again: John and Majestic are also strong contenders for Heightened Intelligence A.

eLock wrote on Oct 31^st, 2009 at 5:59pm:


Yeah, it's a thin line between genius and insanity. 

Quote:

Are these stats based on real-world research too, like the intelligence notes? There's a circus strong guy in Organized Crimes with a 26 strength. We just ran through that module.

Wait--but he's 3rd level, so maybe that's okay if he trained in Strength.

No need to revive a dead argument.  Lets focus on the fun stuff.

eLock wrote on Oct 29^th, 2009 at 4:02am:


Not trying to nitpick, and I didn't bring my rulebook to work today, but I'm thinking the description of devices is inclusive of some of those powers that are gained by some other method - super soldier formula or whatnot.  If I'm remembering correctly, this would lean toward the counter point of your position.  That innate does equal born with as opposed to acquired later.

I'm willing to admit that I might be eating my foot when I get home tonight and take a look at the rules.

Imaginos wrote on Dec 4^th, 2009 at 6:02pm:


'Submission'?
Do you have anything you could share?

Imaginos wrote on Dec 4^th, 2009 at 6:01pm:
Are you saying, that--theoretically speaking--the Fantastic Four and Hulk rolled their powers on the Devices table instead of Powers. Is that what you're saying?

Imaginos wrote on Dec 4^th, 2009 at 6:50pm:
Just for clarity, then, would that also include someone like Wally West, who was accidentally struck by a Lightning Bolt?

Doctor Foom wrote on Dec 4^th, 2009 at 6:04pm:


Here is the website to the project:
http://mostwantedtwo.iwarp.com/

Here is my character Blister:
http://mostwantedtwo.iwarp.com/blister.htm

Rick wrote on Dec 4^th, 2009 at 7:12pm:


Eric's position on devices is one that's never crossed my mind. It does make sense. I have trouble with it because the category is still called "Devices." But it's a really interesting thought.

Re: 'innate:' I guess I would say that all inborn powers are innate powers, but not all innate powers are inborn, if that makes sense. I always saw the FF as having innate powers, and having gotten their powers from the Powers table rather than the Devices table, fwiw.

How is it that interpretations of these rules can still be interesting after 30 years?! 

Imaginos wrote on Dec 4^th, 2009 at 6:01pm:
If you didn't spot the reference in the revised rules, any chance you were thinking of the Designed/Sponsored table from the original rules? That table would fit Captain America--and it includes abilities that we might describe as skills, powers, and devices.

Rick wrote on Dec 4^th, 2009 at 9:36pm:


I was probably misremembering or getting it confused with another ruleset.

Doctor Foom wrote on Oct 25^th, 2009 at 3:46pm:
Here's the part I don't get. You keep coming back again and again about how Powers is the best table to describe characters born with Heightened Intelligence. Then you bring up that comics have people born with Heightened Intelligence, Telepathy, and Cosmic Awareness at an alarming rate. But Cosmic Awareness isn't even on the Powers table, it's on Magic/Psionics. I can see how others had a hard time following your argument when you altered the table you were talking about mid-stream.

I can't hink of one person in comics or TV who has cosmic awareness the way it works in the game. There are psychics and telepaths, but I don't know of heroes who ask yes/no questions and get results anything like the way it works in the rulebook.

Who are all the characters in comics born with cosmic awareness? I want to read up on them. Thanks.

Starhawk is the "One Who Knows".

So is Mantis, and maybe Layla Miller.

Sorry for the delay. Crazy time of year.

Captain Kurt wrote on Dec 21^st, 2009 at 9:58pm:


I'm not aware of it, even though they are both called "Cosmic Awareness."
I think the reason is simply the differing formats. Comics are visual, so they use visions or pictures to depict these kinds of abilities rather than 'yes or no' dialogue with an all knowing source.
But in the game, the GM is the all knowing source, more or less, so there it will occur with dialogue or questions. Also, I think they put limits on it in V&V to make it playable in a game. In comics, it's a story element or deus ex machina.

Most examples of folks born with the power are alien races or cosmic beings like John's example above or Polar Boy's great Santa thread.

Belated welcome to the boards. 

Captain Kurt wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2009 at 3:34pm:


Where did I say "V&V cosmic awareness?"

I think I see your mistake. You've pulled a line out of context. Folks are born with Cosmic Awareness in comics, as opposed to real life, which is what the quote was referring to.

And Santa will always be a hero to me.
Happy holidays.   

I'm going to have to agree with Captain Kurt on this one, Doctor Foom.  From what you said, character is comics "are born with Cosmic Awareness at an alarming rate".  Unfortunately, none of us here seem to be able to rattle off a list of people with this power (comic book style or V&V type), so it seems to be a pretty rare power (in either medium).

The only character I remember seeing with this ability was a Captain Marvel variant in the Avengers Forever maxiseries.  But - as Doctor Foom said - it's tough to show this power in a comic book, so they end up making references to a character 'consulting the cosmos' or 'being one with the universe' or somesuch.  There's not much way to show what's going on inside a character's head, other than what we see in thought bubbles.

No comic character has cosmic awarness like the V&V rules, thats why  I tweaked them.

From my House Rules:

Cosmic Awareness; Pr=0.  Remains one action.   The character saves Id100.  Each question lowers the intelligence by one.  The harder the question, the GM may lower the I score as they see fit. The player can concentrate harder (EI spend extra power) and increase their I score for purposes of that save on a one per one basis.  If the die roll is less than the I score for the roll, they get the answer. If it misses by up to 50, they get nothing.  If they miss up to 75 they get the wrong answer.  If they miss up to 100, they are overwhelmed with the universe and go into a trance. They save Id20 per hour to awaken.  If they miss over 100, then they are in the trance, but they have gain the attention of some Cosmic Power.  This can be good or bad!


This to me seems to be more in line with Captain Marvel, Mantis, Starhawk mabye Adam Warlock.

Captain Kurt wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2009 at 1:18am:


Yes, I probably wasn't as clear with that as I meant to be.  Of course we can see the exact contents of what is shown, but what I meant was:

Even though we see some of what a character is thinking (via thought bubbles), it doesn't mean we're privvy to everything going on "inside" that character.  In other words, Spider-Man might say "Holy cow, that was close" (when a bullet goes whizzing by his head), but there's no real way to gauge whether he felt exhilerated, scared out of his mind, petrified beyond belief, or hardly worried.  And even if the writer and artist convey to us the proper emotion (via body language, facial expression, and dialog), we still don't really know - let's say on a scale of 1 to 10 - whether that fear is at a "3" or a "9".

So we see some of what they are thinking and feeling, but we rarely get the whole of what's going in their noggins (with some wordy writers like Chris Claremont, we might see 90% of it, though).   

Hopefully that explains what I meant a little better.   

And Merry Christmas to you, too (and to everyone else here!).   

Doctor Foom wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2009 at 6:39pm:


What is comicbook style cosmic awareness? I don't know any of the examples above except the watcher? I don't hear that term used much? Does it mean psychic? Like Destiny of the old Brotherhood and Dream Girl of the legion? Or Guinan from Star Trek? Or a crystal ball? Or omniscient? There are lots of those characters in comics. Is that cosmic awareness?

And for the record,  when reading a post from now on  just assume the post was written with the best of inflections.   Do no just assume someone is being snarky, mean or argumentative unless you are positive it is so.    You bring your own baggage with you when you read a post.  So when reading a post, and you think its is the start of something argumentative, just ask.  No harm in that.    This goes for everyone and no one in particular.

Doctor Foom wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2009 at 3:47pm:


Well then I should ask then if that line about me making a mistake was supposed to be snarky or mean? How was I supposed to know I was taking something out of context when the context was unclear? You were talking about a game term Heightened Intelligence B at the same time as cosmic awareness (which you didn't mean in game terms). I can't read minds. How was I supposed to know what you meant? 

Were you trying to be argumentative or make me look bad by saying that I made the mistake and took something out of context?

Captain Kurt wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2009 at 7:16pm:


Lets just chalk this up to a misunderstanding and move on.

Captain Kurt wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2009 at 7:26pm:


I was just trying to make a joke! 

Yeah - the internet - she is a harsh communicator at times.

Cosmic Awareness - basically a form of supernatural foreknowledge or prescience is very difficult to define much less emulate in game play. (As challenging as Green Lantern's power ring for example).

I am bit fond of John's re-write, though I have not studied it exhaustively. I think three factors ought to help the PC 'Get the right answer' from the cosmos:

1) Level of experience of Questioner
2) Int and Cha (or Will)
3) Level of threat/effect

It functions as a GM's fiat if he or she so wishes.

Quote:


In the comics Dr. Foom mentioned above, we find that they are all rather obscure NPCs - with a few notable entities - like Uatu, the Watcher.

I suspect this is more of an NPC power (like Death Touch should be) and is to be handled gently when used by true PCs.

That said, I think it easy to get frustrated on this topic - just cause of the gooeyness of the subject.

Oh no sweat. No Earth-shattering conclusions made!

I'm sure, like the Phantom Stranger, Kris Kringle has MULTIPLE possibilities of origins.

I  - like so many others - just like the logical and perfectly in character power usage for that jolly old elf!

[Ain't Theology 405 or anything!]



BTW - MERRRYYYYYY CHRISTMASSSS!

[dons Red Cap of Spiritual Insight (Cosmic Awareness device)]

"...now, has John been NAUGHTY this year...?"

Yes, good points, Chimaera (good to see you back here, btw!).

I couldn't really articulate why it was so different, but I think Chimaera has pointed out exactly what it is that is different - passive vs. active.

An additional problem - not so much a problem as it relates comparing the game version to the comics model, but one from a game-balance perspective - is how this power can be used to circumvent the GMs plots and stories.  A clever player (or group of players, working in tandem) can use this "yes/no dynamic" to establish almost anything.  Our PCs recently tracked down where the villain base was all by using 'yes'/'no' questions that established what continent, what part of the continent, etc.

Certainly other powers can be "abusive" in this regard as well (Mind Control, Telepathy, etc.), but this one especially has proven to us to be problematic as written.  I think changing it to more of a passive ability serves not only to make it more like what we see in comics; it also makes it a more balanced way to tell a story and function as a way for the GM to communicate things to the players.