Since this is the area where we can  "post our house rules or to talk about rules in general", I figured I would ask a pretty basic question, that will no doubt lead to some rather "interesting" discussions (but discussion that will be informative just the same).

Basically, I know how I see the rules, but I'm curious to see how everyone else sees the rules.

So... What rules in V&V 2.0 do you find confusing?

Falling.

Blowing shit up.

Range modifiers for accuracy seem to scale out of control.

Ironnerd wrote on Jul 9^th, 2015 at 7:55pm:


I mean even if I'm using a sword, I want to blow shit up!



Sorry my post was just matching my avatar signature, it wasn't a serious point of confusion.

Ironnerd wrote on Jul 10^th, 2015 at 6:46am:


I'm saying that the range increments by the rules build exponentially and suffer less and less of a penalty given greater and greater ranges.
Physically, in real world terms, the reverse actually happens.
Modifying penalties should actually arrive more frequently at shorter and shorter increments until a ranged attack is not possible due to diminished perception. Use of a device/scope should extend the rate of fall off, but not undo the pattern.
House ruled this.

Ironnerd wrote on Jul 9^th, 2015 at 9:51am:


By the way, thanks for posting this question, Ironnerd.

RAMBLE

AlabasterKnight wrote on Jul 10^th, 2015 at 6:30pm:


OMG yes, the table makes no sense.  I know they're just trying to keep one table, but holy cow it's ridiculous.  A flat -1 per X" would have solved it.   According to the chart you can shoot at someone from the 900 miles away and it's only a -15.

John wrote on Jul 9^th, 2015 at 5:57pm:


Yeah.. there is a lot in that small section. Could have used some examples.

• At the end of the first turn in which a character falls, he will be falling at 100” per turn. At the end of the second turn, he’ll be falling at 200” per turn, and so on until he reaches terminal velocity of 1000” per turn.
• Damage from falling equals  (100 x turns fallen) x √(characters basic hits)
• When the falling character strikes a wooden beam (for example), and the beam’s structural points are less than the character’s basic hits, the beam gives way, and the character continues on. The beam, however, acts as a “cushion” reducing the amount of damage the character takes when he finally hits the ground (or some object with a structural rating greater than his basic hits).
• If the distance fallen in inches is equal to or less than the character's Agility score, then he may roll a save on 1d20 vs Agility. If successful, subtract the character's Agility score from the total damage.

That seem about right?

Edited:

hmmm...

Exactly why I thought I should start this thread...

You are correct, it's inches fallen in that turn. But your character can fall up to 100" in the first turn if nothing stops he/she/it. He can fall a maximum of 200" during the second turn. And so on.

So if your 200 lb character falls for three turns, and on the forth turn he falls 5", he takes 82 x 5 = 40 10 points of damage?
Would the velocity damage bonus apply? After all, running into something at 200"/turn is the same as something hitting your character at 200"/turn. I've gone both ways on this rule - depends on my mood and the group. In college I totally applied the velocity damage bonus

Oh, be sure to roll a save vs Agility in your example (unless that character has a really low agility), so he has a chance to subtract his Agility score from the 16 points of damage taken.

Thanks, Majestic.

Edited:

Ironnerd wrote on Jul 10^th, 2015 at 11:07pm:


I would just like to point out that I never told anyone to do anything my way on these boards.

All hail the master cylinder!!



RAMBLE

Phrennzy wrote on Jul 13^th, 2015 at 9:09pm:


Yargh!!! I have no idea what happened in my post, but my math was just really bad! I went back and corrected it. 

@Phrennzy: I think that is a pretty common way to interpret the rule.

@ALL:The rule states:
Normal damage taken by a falling object equals the number of inches it fell this turn times the square root of the object's Basic Hits (one per fifty pounds or part thereof).
That may cause some confusion, since it looks like the character could fall for 10 turns, and on the 11th turn could fall only 2" and take only 2" worth of fall damage. But the rule continues...
After the first turn of fall, velocity on impact is automatically 200 inches on the second turn, 300 inches on the third, etc. up to a maximum velocity of 1000 inches per turn.

So...[now that I'm knee deep in it]
On the fourth turn spent falling, the character's velocity is automatically 400"/turn. If he falls another 50" in the 4th turn, he will still be falling at 400"/turn since after the first turn, falling rates are automatic (even though in this example, the character actually fell 650 inches total, he still hits the ground at a speed of 400"/turn or 91 mph). 200 lb @ 400"/turn would come out to 800 damage.

Edited:

John wrote on Jul 14^th, 2015 at 12:27pm:


One time, back in the day you did. I don't remember exactly how you said it but it had something to do with a Helm of Brilliance and a Dwarf.

That's just how I see the rule...

I suspect someone will tell me I've made an error - which is why I started this in the first place, to learn stuff.

Edited:

This is not a right or wrong conversation. It's important to me as a guy who writes these adventures to know how people see the rules so I can be more clear when I write a V&V book (adventure or sourcebook). I read the V&V rules all the time, but I'm also the only V&V GM in my area, so I look for input from you'se guys.

Imaginos wrote on Jul 14^th, 2015 at 8:49pm:


How so? How do you handle leaping?


Edited:

I kinda cheat on this. The character sheets I use do the "Leap" calculations automatically. Of course they go to heck if the charcter is carrying something heavy.

Ironnerd wrote on Jul 14^th, 2015 at 6:49am:


Interesting, as that's not how I'd interpret the falling rules.  Mind you, I don't think I've ever seen somebody go past the first turn, as the vast majority of instances have the person falling for less than a turn (they usually hit the ground on the same turn they fell).  But based on the numbers you've used above, I think they mean:

Square root of the object's Basic Hits (so 2) times the number of inches fallen this turn (50) for a total of 100.  Then you'd add in the velocity (which at 400" per turn would be +2d10, for an average of 11 more points).

So the way I read it, the person would take (approximately, depending on dice rolls) about 111 points of damage.

Ironnerd wrote on Jul 14^th, 2015 at 8:53pm:


I think V&V got quite a few things 'right', but this is one it missed.

If someone rolls speed bonus and wants that to be a type of leap, they can do it. Otherwise, eyeball it during play and just decide if I think the character might be strong enough to make the jump.

Ironnerd wrote on Jul 15^th, 2015 at 3:33pm:


Thank you, sir.  I am enjoying this conversation, too.  I by no means think that any of us are doing things "right" or "wrong", it really comes down to interpretations on (sometimes vaguely written) rules.

Majestic that's a nice house rule.

Interestingly, I have a similar view of movement.

When a character jumps, he is limited to how far he can travel in a phase. When he runs, that limit is not in place.

I actually think the leaping rule is okay (could use a bit of buffing, but I do think it's sound... and I do like a little more anime feel to my games). I think the issue is the movement rule is incomplete.

I have been saying for a long time that V&V is 47 pages of near-perfection, and some have taken that to mean that I would never ever (under any circumstances) want to update, alter, or revise the rules. The point I have failed to make (and one I think I have mentioned somewhere in this forum) is that a modern RPG of any kind will run 150+ pages. That's three times the size of V&V. I think V&V is very good, but I also think it is incomplete - why else would I have messed about with Attack of the Really Big Thing?

To my point - I think what may be needed is a mechanic that limits how far a character can travel in a phase. "Simply" put: Divide total movement per turn by the number of phases available to the character (keep fractions). For fractions of an inch of movement, Option A works like healing where the player rolls d% vs the fraction of an inch. If the roll is = or > the fraction of an inch, the character may move one additional inch. Option B is like inventing where the character uses the whole number of movement and carries the fraction to the next phase and adds it to that phases movement.

Back to leaping - The character can jump Carry capy ÷ 100 inches per phase. He can jump a number of phases equal to Cary Capy ÷ Bodily Weight OR equal to his Inches Per Phase jumping rate, whichever is SMALLER.

"A character may jump slower than his maximum speed at will, but the number of phases he is airborne (see below) cannot exceed his rate per phase; at least not in normal gravity."

The example in the rules is an average guy with a cary capy of 175. He can jump 1.75" per phase. Assuming this guy weighted 100 lbs, he could jump for 1.75 phases, traveling 3.5 (17.5 feet) inches total with a running start. Without a running start he can jump 1.75" (or 8.75 feet), which is impressive, but reasonable for game-play. He can jump vertically 0.875" (or 4.375 feet) - again pretty impressive, but not insane.

If the same dud weighed 200 lb, he could only jump for 0.875 phases. If he had a body power that made him very light - say 50 lbs, he could still only jump 1.75 phases because his phases airborne cannot exceed rate per phase.

Edited:


sooo... easy right?

The nice thing is my players have never been jumpers... Only rarely have I had to employ Leaping or Falling rules, but my upcoming adventure features and flying "villain's lair", so falling may actually happen. I was thinking of putting in examples for leaping and falling in the adventure index.

Majestic makes a good point about my movement mechanic. It does not address the issue of less-Agile characters who still have high movement rates. That lower agility means that the character will have fewer actions per turn.

I know a lot of people see the phases as a tiny segment of time where the only thing that happens is player "X" does whatever it is he does. I know this because of posts made by a few other members of this forum and others. It's a completely logical way to look at the game, but I don't agree with it (yeah... super shocking, I know).

I pose the following counter-idea: The reason for phases is to help players simulate the non-stop kind of action we see in comic books. If a character has a low agility and gets 1 phase per turn, it takes 15 seconds for him to accomplish his action. He doesn't stand around doing nothing for 14 seconds than burst into action in the last second, it's just that he does fewer things in a given span of time. Likewise, if a character has high Agility and gets 8 action phases per turn, he does not neatly move every other second, he's doing stuff throughout the entire turn, but due to his high Agility, he can do more things (but at the cost of power and movement).

Now, the really important thing to ask yourself is what would the in-game effect be if characters had to accelerate like normal people. I think it would be more realistic, but I think it would add more complexity than fun. I'm willing to give it a try though, I just don't think I'm the one to come up with the new mechanic. If anyone does have an improved movement mechanic, post it and I'll read it over. If it makes sense, I'll give it a shot. If not, I'll ask for clarification. Just keep in mind, I'll see it as a house rule.

Since we are beginning to wander away from the topic, I would guess we all have a pretty good handle automatic weapons,  jumping and falling (and even basic movement). So we'll head off to the next topic.


so... Grappling, Gravity Control, or "Blowing Shit Up"?

FYI
I'm fine with continuing on in with the movement rule, but think it may deserve its own thread.

Edited:

Characters can change facing direction when it is not their action phase at a cost of 2 Power Points. Evasion and some powers (most notably Heightened Defense) imply that the character continues to move slightly during their enemies' attack phases.

I could see that as a guide for house-ruling that a character could move one inch per phase out of turn at a cost of > 2 Power Points.

Great point, polarboy!

And yeah, I can't say I see movement as a huge problem in my games, either.  I don't find it to be ideal (it's a little wonky), but I typically handwave it away as somewhat clunky game mechanics that allow the game to move along at a decent pace.

It's so weird how the simple stuff is run so many different ways.

Going into this I figured Falling, Leaping, and Moving were gonna be short discussions.

John wrote on Jul 25^th, 2015 at 10:18am:

I like this too and have been doing something similar in my PbP game. If someone is moving I divide how much they want to move in their action by 15 (the number of phases between attacks) and that is how much they move per phase. I think it is particularly useful with falling or someone trying to run/fly away. I feel that if I just allow the movement all *bam* on their action it is more like a limited teleportation.

John wrote on Jul 25^th, 2015 at 10:18am:


Thanks, John.  Glad you found it useful.

So, the RAW provides a simple rounded formula for falling. It's simple and close to reality but leaves too much out. I use a conversion chart that shows how many seconds a fall lasts for any given elevation (up to 60 seconds of falling), how fast the falling object is travelling at impact in both miles per hour and inches per turn, how much damage is incurred from the acceleration due to the fall alone and how long a human/humanoid falls for a given elevation at terminal velocity. You have to add the damage from the mass of the object from the brawling weapons table to get the whole amount at impact.  This is one of the sheets I have pinned to my GM screen.

This chart is also helpful when a PC or NPC attempts to intercept a falling teammate or enemy.

How do you manage the possibility to fly with weather control (like Storm Does)?
the speed, the maximum weight etc..

Actually, my new player group has a guy with weather control who flies by riding around on a little cloud. Since it's wind driven, I figured 120 mph max would be within the realm of comic-book-realism. Besides, it was an invented ability, so any faster than a Cessna 172 seemed too fast, and 120 MPH allows him to get someplace quickly, but also allows him to spend more inventing and training to get the little cloud to go faster. Of course, with his BC's he would fly a lot faster with "Flight". Again, it was an invention, so I limited the power (it takes a while to form the cloud, he can fall off, etc...).

With Storm, I would say she actually has "Flight". In the beginning she had "Low Self Control", meaning she had difficulty controller her flight abilities.

As for Carry Capy, that depends upon the kind of flight we are talking about. Superman flight is different from Storm flight, Dr. Fate flight (which is a spell), or even Iron Man flight (which is a device). You need to look into the character so see what suits him best.

There is nothing precise in the RAW about CC with Weather control. I would have to say with WX Control (especially) total CC is a wildcard. It all depends on how much wind the character can generate. It may also depend upon his costume since a "Flying Squirrel" costume would catch more air than standard spandex. I don't think the flying CC should exceed the normal CC since in the case of WX Control, the character is still basically carrying the load.

For this rule, I think some examples would be better than another rule. There are just too many variables to this kind of flight. As soon as you think you have it all pinned down, some guy is going to ask "What if I attach parachutes to the load?" or "What if BubbleMan surrounds the load in a big sphere to provide more surface area for the wind to push against?". When you have really broad rules, all this stuff becomes possible. I don't really want to dig up the "Lifted by Bubble" table to see if the 675 lb load can be lifted by a 10 foot diameter bubble riding a 37 mph updraft. But I WOULD like to see the maximum wind speed a character with WX power can generate (I would say equal to his move rate for simplicity).

Quote:

I totally agree


I think you're right about CC, and it makes me realize that i was not clear 
In fact when i asked about CC it was in terms of extra PC(s) lifted by the wind. How many more (N)PCs can be carried by those winds ? Maybe it should be dealt through the power level

Merteuil,

I was going to post something similar to Ironnerd's response but got distracted when She Who Must Be Obeyed (my lovely bride) decided I had something far more important to do.

He is spot on, the wind is the wind and there is plenty to go around. I think you are right and it would depend on the PR drain for the use of the power each time. That is the fairest way to go. The larger the area affected and the larger the difference between what the weather is and what the character wants to do determines the PR, so that is something you have to work out ahead of time as GM, even if you don't share it with the player until the time comes. That would add a little tension to combat if that is where it happens. I would also consider a save against either Int or AG or maybe both when trying to lift a group of objects, especially at first. Controlling a bunch of separate objects is much more difficult than controlling one. Like juggling three or four balls is more difficult than tossing one in the air and catching it.

In my experience, players tend to overestimate their powers so reigning them in once in a while adds realism to the role play.

Also, in rethinking my original post on carrying capacity, I think the player should be able to lift well more than their stated capacity in these terms but might even suffer a bit when trying to carry an object by hand. The added load would make flying harder to achieve due to the added mass. The aerodynamic properties of the object would play a large part in whether or not it can be lifted by wind.


Ironnerd wrote on Sep 13^th, 2015 at 9:03pm:


That would be underhanded, unexpected, dastardly and otherwise not nice.  I like it and heartily approve.

It would also work on all characters with flight. I always imagined flying takes some level of concentration, even if it is as unconscious as walking once the character is very experienced. There is no reason why wind shear wouldn't affect Ironman or Johnny Storm just as readily as Angel. Perhaps the Hulk leaping or Thor being pulled along by Mjolnir might push through it because of relative mass and air resistance, but a huge invisible downdraft would be troublesome to just about every other flying character.

Make sure you add falling damage equivalent to the speed at which the character is traveling both laterally and vertically when they the ground if you do it!

To me, Weather Control isn't Flight or Telekinesis.

If someone has Weather Control but doesn't have flight, then I let them move at normal speed by essentially hovering/walking on air as long as they spend an action per turn to manipulate the winds. No PR, it just requires vigilance because the winds are powerful, but fickle.

Fine manipulation like telekinesis isn't possible with the wind, although large objects can be moved with a tornado or a hurricanes.

That's how I roll.

RAMBLE 

I let characters use Weather Control indoors... but so much depends on the air mass and moisture content you're working with. If you're fighting in a house... your options are pretty limited unless the tap is running, the window or door is open, or it's dry in the house. If the tap is running, our Weather Controller can make fog, then rain, or snow. If they can get a door open then they can access the wind, but it's weaker in the house. Open up another window and you can have a current and now you can start to really manipulate the wind. Dry houses are easier to generate static and lightning in, but rain, snow ice and fog? Not so much.

Big, wet caverns with lots of openings to the air? Weather Control works essentially unchanged. Space station? Air and moisture are so carefully controlled and managed, your powers really hard to use unless you're in a large area.

In my game, Weather Control is all about location, location, location. And that means that even though it's a big, impressive power, an opponent can beat you down if you aren't careful.

That's how I roll.

RAMBLE

Razor_Fangs wrote on Oct 27^th, 2015 at 5:46pm:

It determines the NPC's experience level.  He then gets one roll on the Training bonus table for every experience level above one.

I guess that's possible...

What level is your highest Player-Character - and what kind of rolls did you make?

A level 21 NPC does not even show up on the chart until you have PC's at 12 (unless you rolled a lot of 24's on 4d6 - 0.8% chance)

I use that chart all the time.  There are times where it gives a result that just doesn't make sense (based on circumstances), so when that happens I simply roll again.

95% of the time it works really well, though.

This is interesting. I am only vaguely aware of the rules for randomly generating NPCS and Villians because I never do.


I always create my villains with a purpose in mind that fits the plot I am working on.

Random rolls are fine for some things but when it comes when it comes to major plot objects, I want total control

Quote:


I do too, Klystron.  And the table doesn't preclude that in the slightest.  All it does is give you what level to set the villain at, rather than arbitrarily picking one.  And the way the table is set up, it usually gives you a villain just a few levels higher than your highest level PC (which is perfect, as the GM will usually be focusing on multiple characters as well as the overall story and lots of other factors, while the players each get to focus on a single hero).

I don't think you're alone in hardly using that chart, btw.  I find it fascinating, really, how so much stuff in the back of rulebooks tend to get ignored or overlooked, while the stuff early on is (usually) adhered to.  I think it's simply human nature to do so, but as I said, I find it fascinating.  It makes me wonder, if that table was in the first few pages of the rulebook, how much more gravitas it would be given as part of the game.

Curious how you came to that age, Oni.  From what I can see, the minimum age you can get for a character with super powers is 15, and for a 5th level character, the lowest age you could get (assuming you rolled two 1s on 2d6) would be 19.

And you'd definitely want to ditch the Reduced Agility along with one of the super powers.

The Infant Terrible

A 3 year old middle eastern with a low enough agility that someone might have a hand up his a$$.

Sounds like Jeff Dunham's son of achmed puppet.

I kiiiilllll youuu!

I've long contended that random rolling inspires much more creativity, kind of forcing one into directions their mind might not ordinarily go.

@Klystron: I love it.  I saw Jeff Dunham live not that long ago.

Razor Fangs

I think you are cutting yourself short on a great way of playing this game.

I write my adventures with specific ideas and plots in mind.  I am telling a story and when I introduce new players to the game, I tell them we are writing a comic book together.  I supply the setting and the major plot elements and they supply the dialogue, drama and flesh out the game.

I find the game much more enjoyable when I care about and can relate to the characters. Characters need to have a setting to live in and adversaries to struggle against in order to be more than just a diversion from the cares and troubles of normal life.

This is escapist fiction we are writing together.  I tend to look at it like music.  I am the composer and conductor, the players are the musicians that bring my composition to life and give it meaning.

Random rolls are fine for many things, but IMHO have only a small place in villain creation.  Random generation is my safety net when I get writer's block. I almost always modify what is generated, using that as a framework to fit into what I had in mind in the first place.

I prefer a long game with connected adventures rather than a bunch of singular episodes so I need my villains to fit into that scheme. I do use singular episodes as fillers, but almost always include elements from my long game, even if it is just foreshadowing in news items or other clues they players uncover as they go along.

Rather than break the game, I find it enhances the game beyond being a mere past-time.

Majestic wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2015 at 3:52pm:


The only thing that i built for my Enslaver (that i have just postedin the appropriate section) are the powers that have to be decided with the GM.

I'm really satisfied about this character, he will prove to be a terrifying nemesis for my group of players.

Majestic wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 2:52pm:


If players start being too strong i start building my villains

Well, not all the time, but at every quest's climax (not necessarily if it's not action-centered) there must be a strong villain to threaten the party.

It's a golden rule that the Avengers movies are seriously lacking for example.