I looked it over already... kicked the tires. Gave you my feedback. I'm okay with it. Any I could see a situation where it would helpful to have rule for the truly big and ungainly.

Kudos!

RAMBLE

Yep.  I couldn't find it either 

I also noticed "Mall Madness" sneaked in there when I wasn't looking!?

I haven't had time to check out these guidelines yet, but even so I agree with Dispkay Name. Giant monsters are par for the course in the history of American comics.

One question for you, John:

What page is that image (of the RBT in the rules) on?  I seem to vaguely remember it, but I just looked and can't find anything.

Was it in the 1st Edition rules?

Display Name wrote on Jul 4^th, 2013 at 10:41am:


Yep, it's up now as well.

What formula was used to calculate the Experience Points for Gorillasaurus? The standard rulebook guideline is [(Hit Points + Power Points) x Level x 2] but the total listed for this character is much lower than that score.

Ironnerd wrote on Jul 4^th, 2013 at 9:20pm:



I didn't know whether the items I noticed while skimming through the document were mistakes or intentional RBT guidelines.

Ironnerd wrote on Jul 4^th, 2013 at 11:16pm:



If the creature is non-sentient and therefore defaults to Level 4, the revised rulebook guidelines would suggest multiplying (Hits + Power) by a total of 8 when calculating XP.

Ironnerd wrote on Jul 4^th, 2013 at 11:55pm:



In the revised rules, the section on animals says that non-sentient creatures fight as Level 4, and your character sheet reiterates that point by saying under the asterisk that the creature acts as Level 4. So from the game mechanics the character is Level 4.

If animal stats in the published books don't list levels it's because they act as Level 4, as already covered in the rules.

The power Illusions states that Solid Energy Illusions, which have Hits (but no Power Points), fight at Level 4 and are worth 8 XP for every Hit Point they have. This is consistent with the formula of multiplying (Hits + Power) x Level x 2.

Ironnerd wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:36am:


Level clearly does apply to XP calculation with regards to Solid Energy Illusions which do not earn Experience Points and only default to Level 4. The rules don't suggest any reason not to use the same guidelines for other non-sentient beings when calculating XP.

Your point about the small dog is well taken, but any alternate system for calculating XP you might suggest would be a house rule, not the rulebook guideline.

Or, they may be worth no points at all... 

Understand, I do follow what you are saying here, and I do appreciate the supporting data. I just think it seems odd that if I capture 24 Chihuahuas and take them to the local pound, I'll go from level 1 to level 4. On the other hand, I can use my weather control powers to stop a hurricane from destroying Savannah, and get zero experience. We don't get experience for averting disaster. Actually, our characters are only supposed to gain experience for capturing a villain and taking them to the authorities. Dogs, Hurricanes, and Gorillasaurus are not villains - they are neither good nor evil. This begs the question - Should my character get any exp points at all for capturing those 24 chihuahuas? I don't gain exp for disarming a bomb or finding the impressive artifact even if they are part of an adventure. And is a plague of chihuahuas any less horrible than one big mutated ape?

Animated Solid Illusions are an interesting case - they are always controlled by an entity with an intelligence who is either good or evil, and are thus bound to an intelligence. Malestra's Demon is actually sentient, so he's also a slightly different case, and he is also controlled by an intelligence.

For those RBT's that are actually Animated Servants, Animated Solid Illusions, or even pets- I am with you 100%. Sentient RBT's - again, no question as to how they should be handled. As for non-sentient, non-pet/servant/illusion critters, I am open to input, and I'll sit back and let it pile up a bit. I'm not going to get too wrapped around the axle on this one topic. Not when there are sentient neutral characters out there as well as characters with a dozen powers. I'll read ya'lls' posts and move the best way I can to address concerns. I will also post a "Gorillasaurus" errata sheet later (probably without an EXP value).

Errata sheet.
I was surprised you missed that on the first go around. How can a non-sentient creature be good or evil?

Based on this discussion, I have a profound new respect for dog catchers...

RAMBLE

Giant monsters certainly populate so-called American comics. The Justice League of America formed fighting Starro, and the cover of Fantasic Four #1 features a now-iconic giant monster. The "new" X-Men first rescued the original team in fighting a living island. The first issue of the original series of Alpha Flight pitted the Canadian heroes against  the gigsntoc Tundra. I'm not sure why you would concern yourself with the views of someone under the misimpression these opponents have no place in V&V. The appearance of the giant machine in Death Duel says otherwise.

Although I can foresee arguments against this method of calculating the experience value of non-sentient RBT (and other critters), I don't think anyone will bring them up, so I'll add that to the rule just for clarification.

Experience value of Non-Sentient adversaries is derived as follows: (Hit points + Power)x8.

I don't think it is really necessary to "Apprehend" Gorilasaurus, or hand him over to the authorities.

Incidentally, Gorillasaurus is worth 2,205,624 exp points - enough to catapult a very lucky level 1 character straight to level 66 - that's a LOT of Chihuahuas.

[see attached pdf]

LOL!!! A notch. Maybe two

While ya'll mull over the basics of my take on RBT's, I'll continue working on "Combiners" - a single RBT made up of several smaller sub-units. The intent is to include it with the next rev of the Freebie. It will also include guidance for handling crowds.

By the way, if you want to use existing counters in "Really Big Scale" print/copy them at 10%. By the time I am ready for the update, I figure I will have talked Yad into making up a few counters.

I agree that the "standard" is to treat them as 4th Level, but (OTOH), the rules are clear that only captured opponents (villains) that are turned into the authorities are what gain a character XP (other than donating $).

You could collect all the chihuahuas you want, but (as GM), I'd just laugh at you and calmly explain that they aren't "opponents" or "villains".

Now for RBTs, one can certainly make the argument that they're true adversaries (truly being "opponents") and now seems as good as any of a time to define exactly how much XP characters should get for them.

I've had to face such a thing before in my games.  Consider the Star-Devourer (from a published adventure, even if it was only from a magazine), as well as the giant tree creature from "In Broad Daylight" (from Monkey House).

I'd recommend doing something along the lines of 1/100th, if it is truly defeated (perhaps even somewhat defined, as getting a lucky KO in V&V should hardly count against something this massive).  Obviously it would be difficult to turn something this large over to the authorities (where would they put it?  On an island with all the other monsters? )

BTW, I'm still waiting to hear what page of the 2E rules that giant mecha is from?  I've looked through both the 1E and 2E rulebooks and can't find it (but it does seem familiar; I just can't place where I've seen it!).

I reckon ANYTHING can be used in and belong to V&V..... This is coming from a man who lives in Australia.... one of the weirdest places around

I used some of the ideas above with a character in Enter the Gene Pool. It makes sense that certain powers might have limited effevt on targets og a signigicantly large scale.

We talked about this some today (at our Star Wars session, before we began play) and one of my players threw out Death Touch (before I'd seen or read your post on that, Yp!).  Good catch!

I don't know about your way of doing Death Touch.  Firstly, it's a lot of work/math to figure (more than I want to do at the table, to be honest).  And secondly, the more saves you give the defender means all the more chance of them losing all their Hit Points and being knocked unconscious! (remember, all they have to do is fail one roll).

Re: that picture on p. 31, I'd looked at it a couple of times, but didn't realize that was a giant critter.  But I think you're right; it does look sort of like a Godzilla-like monster (before I'd thought it was just a paranormal crouching on a rooftop).

I'm still not clear on what "table for finding the "Range Multiplier" you're meaning.  I thought at first you meant the Range Modification chart on p. 23 (of Revised 2E), but I don't think that's the one you mean.  Looking at Size Change, there doesn't seem to be a Range column or table.

[Late Edit: I hadn't seen that PDF you'd attached before; I'm thinking that's the chart you're referring to.]

One thing to keep in mind with V&V and RBTs is that - despite the massive amount of Hit Points - these beasts are still very vulnerable to regular attacks, if you choose not to give them Invulnerability.

Personally, I think you should make some "standard" rules that apply to all RBTs.

Immunity to those powers we talked about (the players should simply have to figure out some other way to take them out) would be one.

Secondly, I'd give them all Invulnerability, probably less than the standard 3d10.  My suggestion would be 1d10, but make it per hit, rather than per turn.

Otherwise, any hero can get lucky with any roll, and when the RBT rolls a 01-05% on their knockout chance, they go down.  Not to mention when somebody hits them with a much larger blast or blow (perhaps 15+ points), they're going to have a much larger chance of dropping.  That's just not what you typically see in comics, movies, or the like with these massive beasties.

What I've typically done is also make a ruling that they can't be knocked out with the standard KO rules, at least not until X amount of damage is done.

Otherwise, you end up with really anti-climactic battles, where the first attack by Hero A drops King Kong with his first attack, perhaps only hitting for 3 points of damage.

Majestic wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 2:34am:


I ran into this problem with the module - In Broad Daylight at a Con I ran the game in. The pre-gen characters were the Indestructibles from the module. Every turn they would be successful on the KO rules. So the Giant Villain would make it wake up roll (Yes I cheated) and then be KO again.

Finally I declared it defeated in a rather easy battle.

Next time I will use an alternate KO rule for it. "Whenever the Giant Character loses more that half it remaining Hit Points in a single phase, it is KO".

This will make the battle last a while but will not force the players to eliminate every single HP to win. Hopefully making it a single phase will reward players for working together and coordinating attacks.

I just re-read a bit farther back.

In answer to Majestic's question about where would they keep such a RBT if captured.

V&V does not seem to have a shrink ray power as such.  I'd recomend having a variation of Shrinking with effect other (or Transformation > Shrinking > periodic reapplication).  There could be an entire miniature menangerie of these critters in the end

Just waiting to escape en masse 

So, if you can't use Paralysis Ray on a RBT because it's too big... should a P-Ray have a greater effect on a RST (really small thing)?

Just asking.

RAMBLE

So far I think it's been a great discussion.

One thing to consider is Gravity Control.  As per the RAW, the "area" of the Gravity controller isn't really defined, so it's one I think should be specifically spelled out.  Otherwise, any Gravity Control character can likely easily lock down any beast, no matter how large (unless their augmented Strength is super high).

Ypsilante, when you get a chance, could you post all of the "basic rules" you've come up with that you think should apply to RBTs?  I know it's still a work in progress, but I'm working on the latest version of our Supplemental Rules, and some of this has inspired me to address some of these issues.  If they end up getting covered in this document (down the road), no need to duplicate them.

OH GODS!!! Thank you Sooo MUCH!  I'm so using this!  My players after a 10-round grueling battle with the STAR DEVOURER finally managed to get a hit on it AND get it to fail one of its saving throws against Death Touch to down it... then "killed"/'Banished it back to its nether realms with Devitalization Ray... its power points are very low.  But the whole event left me feeling...less than satisfied.  These rules would have helped a lot!

As soon as I've finished running  a ... Certain Nazi filled adventure I'm testing... I'm so going to do a "Pacific Rim" style adventure where Doctor Apocalypse finds the 'Apocalypse Stone' on Easter Isle and unwittingly summons forth the Kaiju servitors of the Race of Other-dimensional god/demons who led him to his Gem Stone!  He has unwittingly let the 'weapons' of his imprisoned masters free to wreak Havoc and conquer in their name!  That cannot be allowed... "The EARTH BELONGS to APOCALYPSE!"  But even vast as his powers are...he must seek aid from self-styled 'heroes' to stop this Armageddon {he's certainly not going to risk himself overmuch!}.  Of course only he has the Giant Robot and Mecha Tech of sufficient power to fight these otherworldly conquerors... hehe... and OF COURSE... the Doctor is working an angle to take advantage of this... {Evil Grin!}   

Think I'll call this Series of Episodes - "Deal With the Devil..."

That sounds awesome, Thunderbolt! (I always loved Doctor Apocalypse). 

One of our most recent adventures ended up being called "Demon's Deal".

It *is* posted to FGU's site.

Display Name wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 9:05pm:


That's the original version. The file attached to reply #56 is the revised version.


SuperWannabe wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 3:11am:


I am going to go see that today. No doubt I'll be thinking of the PDF as well.

Yes, it's pre-production. The file on the FGU site is also pre-production. That's why I had Yad put "Experimental" on the cover, and why the text states that is it not yet canon and is for play testing. I plan to resubmit a revised file in a few weeks when Yad has his other work finished.

I don't have access to enough play-testers to get the big bugs out of this set of rules, so I put it up as a freebie to get it out in the hands of players everywhere. Since I updated it, I posted the revision here since it seems as though everyone who downloaded the file is on this forum.


Also: "Pacific Rim" was quite entertaining - not "Amazing" but worth the price of a matinee.

While watching it, I found my self doing two things:

1) Accurately predicting upcoming events (although I was surprised by Ron Perlman)
2) Thinking of the RBT rules and checking off the stuff in the movie that the game already covers


Just on a lark, I added a "Really Big Robot". It's inspired by certain robots in Pacific Rim. It may be totally out there, but it was fun to put together. Unfortunately, I don't have "Deathduel with the Destroyers" in front of me right now. I may make some changes once I re-read that adventure.

It's interesting, but somebody over on RPG.net just asked the question about what supers game was best for supers vs. monsters.

Just thought it was interesting, given the timing of this.

Probably someone who recently watched "Pacific Rim".
One strength of V&V is that it is not as "Complete" as many other games. Most games tell you exactly what you can and cannot do, while V&V [apparently] recognizes the wide-open nature of the super hero genre, and is itself pretty wide open.

I have read a bunch of games and have not found one yet that does giants as easily as V&V. I know there have been a couple of dedicated Kaiju Games, but I never got my hands on them. I don't know if they worked well with both "normal" and "Kaiju" scale characters. I know R Talsorian's "Mekton" can handle normal-scale and gigantic-scale, but it is a "Mecha" game at it heart, and the combat system can be frustrating (this is partially addressed in some expansions). Big Eyes, Small Mouth also does normal to huge. It's better than V&V in some ways, not as good in others - and also has hints of V&V throughout. It's also out of print (and 3rd edition is kinda "meh").

I was actually very surprised at how easy it was to create Kaiju (and Jaegers) using V&V - Big starships are also pretty easy to do. I have not yet tried a planet-sized character/mecha though. Actually, I have no desire to do a "Death Star", as it's just a planet with a big gun stuck to it and the ability to move - not all that hard to approximate in the V&V system.

I had this thought or so occur to me about RBTs:

Player 1 has Animal Control/Mind Control/Emotion Control/Telepathy.  How do these various powers interact with RBTs?

A group of players attempt to combine their Animal Control powers to seize control of a RBT.  How would this work?

A group of players attempt to combine their Emotion Control, Mind Control, and Animal Control powers (respectively).  How would *this* work?

You can introduce "combined powers" to V&V.  I saw this concept in the Immortal Rules for Dungeons and Dragons (player's guide, page 6):

"Ability scores of cooperating Immortals may be added together for purposes of making a check. What one Immortal may find almost impossible, two or three may consider easy when working together"

Ironnerd wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 12:55pm:


Considering that you're introducing a new type of opponent that *requires* teamwork, I would think that it would be perfectly reasonable for you to at least make some suggestions on how to combine powers.  In fact, I think it's unreasonable for you not to.

Power stunts from inventing points can do this.   And if its two people, they can use half of a point from one, half from the other ( or other fractions if its more than two...).   

I have had a Kaiju ( is that how you spell it?) attack my players every once in a while.

Cool!  So will you release this adventure with the ruleset?  Maybe a "sample mini-adventure" kind of thing?  Or are you doing a full-scale adventure?

Just to let ya'll know, the Freebie "Attack of the Really Big Thing" has been removed from the FGU site.
Thanks to the help I received from you'se guys, I am confident enough in the guidelines to include them in a couple of adventures (already in work). Also, due to input from you'se guys the current guidelines are not well-represented by the file that was on the FGU page.

Thank-you all very much for your input, I really appreciate the help. 

So, I admit to totally over-complicating this. The rules are really mostly there in the V&V core rules, you just need to extend the size/wt table and add some powers to address the horrid AGL penalties for a big critter/mecha. But I do thank y'all for looking at the experiment. It was also very nice of Scott to indulge me a little.

For my next trick, I'll see what I can do with the rules as they are. Maybe I'll post a plus-sized-critter/character here for "Peer Review" I mean... How would ya'll do Galactus?

Machines (star ships, giant piloted robots, etc...) are actually much easier than big critters, since they can just be made up ('cause it's a comic book game).  Big critters have to follow some rules. If I had some more players around here, I could test stuff a lot faster... [violin music].

Still pondering Super Sentai teams (multiple entities that combine into a single big entity more powerful than the sum of its parts).

Didn't we discuss Mutant/Body power, No negative agility modifier at some point?

A Question...

What about attacking like.. a Destroyer Naval vessel or say and aircraft Carrier?  There are non-mecha 'giant-robot' vehicles that are RBT's...

Do you just figure out discrete components on the vehicle to destroy.. Palladium ROBOTECH style.. or does it get really big modifiers to be easily hit and weight multipliers to increase its weight an thus hit points {Vehicles have 1 hit point per 50lbs of weight; 8.6 Vehicles}.

{Examples:}
“Von Stengle”:
– Airship ‘Arcano-Steamtech’ = WT: 25,000lbs, Pass: 100, Cargo CAP: 21,000, Speed: 160mph,
Hit Points:  125di/500de
Decks {1”}: SR5;  Hull {6”}: SR15/cu ft
4x Pylons: SR=15/per 1’ft
4x Drive Pods: ‘prop’ 5di/10de, ‘engine’ 10di/20de ‘-20mph’
4x Lift Rotor: 15di/30de
* Uhrwerken Control = 1,000lbs {FF 75pts} 10di//20de; 
* Lift Control = 6,000lbs, 40di/120de {ADR60}–Ship steel SR15{11 off}
* Boiler = 5 tons, 50di/200de {ADR 75}
* Cloaking Device = Radar, EM Detection, Audio & Visual
* Coal Bin = 2 Tons
- Conversion Cannon = 1mile, 45^deg arc, +15 to hit, (per “medium nuclear bomb") Dam rad ½ mile, 2d100 dam; 4,000lbs, 20di/80de
- 4x Lightning Cannon = 150”, 180^deg arc, Dam 1d20 {As Lightning Control}

The Flying Dutchess:
- prototype “Power-Sail” Yacht = Wt: 16,000lbs, Pass: 1+6, Cargo CAP: 8,000lbs, Speed: 120mph {Air} / 20 {water}
Hit Points:  80di/320de
- 2x Vibratory Cannon = 60”, turret, 2d8 dam per cannon (both may be fi red at same time), 10% chance that a special attack to do so will destroy target completely.

Ah. ok... the reason for this question is for theme.. take for example STAR TREK.  The Enterprise is arguably a location AND a vehicle.  The Question becomes one of scale... it make sense that a man-sized target can't do as much damage to the 'location' "Enterprise" damaging specific components of the location "Enterprise"... but another starship... say the "Excelsior" should be able to damage the 'Vehicle' Enterprise and not just specific components.

How would you suggest adjudicating this situation?

Yeah, thanks for the advice... I'm actually just about to run "From the Deeps of Space" for my New Guardians party... so I was looking for a little more advice on how to handle character to ship and ship to ship space battles.

Though you have made me wonder... if anyone has ever fully deck-planned out the Enterprise?  A five foot multi-layered map of its decks would be totally awesome for a game! lol!